there’s more than shown here and it’s more than just these users too 😭
if you find the thread don’t piss in the popcorn (brigade) but also please maybe don’t bring it back here i don’t want 400 notifications of entry level “is almond milk milk” vegan discourse
I would just like to bring up that most equestrians don’t farm their horses milk. Without demand it would probably be similar
I milk oats
Was gonna make a blizzard joke here, but this person is so intellectual that they wouldn’t get the low-grade humor, or how milk production before markets only works if everyone works a single farm, and cannot work if the population is scaled up.
Found the carnist
no u
deleted by creator
Almond milk is a waste of water and is priced out of poor families ability to buy them :(
I know. Almond milk is a huge waste of water. But unfortunately, it’s harder to find others like oat and soy in their unsweetened variants.
this is based on poore-nemececk 2018, a meta"study" that ignores guidance on LCA studies being unable to be combined, and doesn’t even have the integrity to disclose this in the paper. it’s bad science.
“Bad science” is commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com for “I don’t want this to be true”.
it could be true, but the study used to support it is flawed.
“flawed study” is @commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com for “I didn’t like the conclusions some researcher who spent a long time looking into all the scientific studies drew, so I’m going to cast vague doubts about it instead”
That just depends on where you are. It is as prevalent in major cities in my state as oat, soy, and alternatives.
major cities
Yeah, I don’t live near one of those. I’d probably raise my carbon footprint more by driving an hour than I would buying a different milk.
Ah yeah, I’ve had an interaction with that anti-vegan user before, and let me tell ya, if you want to speedrun vegan bingo… ideal discussion partner right there.
politely raises hand
While I think factory farming is abhorrent, I find the most compelling reasons to eat plant-based to be the environmental ones. Therefore, I think “I only eat a little bit of meat” is actually a huge positive step someone can take. If your primary concern regarding meat is the cruelty of taking the life of another animal, that’s completely valid, but compared to the others, that square just feels out of place.
It took me a whole 24 hours to realise that the person having a weird, inconsistent, fact-swerving argument with me (about my assertion that most male cattle are killed young for meat) was the original one from the screenshot!
My last time talking to them, they were arguing that the use of the word “exploitation” in the vegan society’s definition of veganism simply meant “use” because that’s a thesaurus entry for exploitation. When their argument breaks down they go full on “words are just invented”.
I found the comment chain. Nuts. They always pick and the weirdest stuff to argue over.
When their argument breaks down they go full on “words are just invented”.
that never happened
The happy animals one is hilarious. I would have no problem with someone eating me after I died and I sure as shit am not happy
Ah yes. That one is the one where every interlocutor happens to only eat meat “from their uncles farm with 3 cows on 40 acres of pasture, where they’re hand-scrubbed by cherubs while eating figs.”
Aw man I fucked that up. My uncle has 40 cows on 3 acres that get hand scrubbed by figs while eating cherubs.
So we’re not getting hand milked by 40 cows while getting figged by 3 cherubs.
and the cows only die of old age and untreatable disease…
I don’t care about my corpse after I’m dead, but I do somewhat disagree with getting killed.
I donate my corpse to necrophiliacs after I die. Go nuts you guys. Just be sure to see if the cannibals want a slice before you throw the used Me-light in the trash
But would you want to … get … Milked?
Sorry
Yes
You wouldn’t drink Valmond milk?
Best milk ever, from a non suffering animal who enjoy consensually sharing it too.
Yes please
Either way, it would be really hard to voice my opinion
The “Vegans are loud and annoying” crowd are more loud and annoying than actual vegans in my personal experience.
So true. I’m not vegan, but someone proudly yelling about how much meat they eat is so fucking cringe. Very “suck it, libs” mindset.
Often when society had an extreme default position on a topic, its defenders sound batshit insane.
See:
- Gay and trans rights
- Reproductive rights
- Veganism
- Unregulated capitalism
- Homelessness
But you probably won’t get called a murderer 20 seconds into the discussion though.
You’d be surprised. Both “The farming of your plants kills more animals than livestock raising” and “veganism is genocide because they’ll stop breeding the animals if we stop eating them” unironocally come up almost instantly when I talk about it and I’m not even quite vegan, I just avoid animal products because of allergies to a lot of them…
35 points for Ravenclaw for the provision of the vegan bingo.
That link is a really cool resource, thanks!
TIL there’s a bingo TLD.
I’m not even sure if that bingo is supposed to be pro-vegan or anti-vegan …
When I was a young vegling, I spent some time doing “outreach” on r/DebateAVegan (air quotes because it often felt about as impactful as having a wank), and you’d see those bingo arguments being used earnestly ALL THE TIME.
I actually did occasionally get some fairly novel and thought provoking stuff, from time to time, but mostly it was explaining the basics of biology or econ to people like in OP’s example.
My main problem is when people are aggressively trying to make me feel guilty about just living.
Just curious, does a community like that exist here on lemmy? I do have some questions that aren’t answered by the vegan bingo and would love to ask someone, but going straight to !vegan@lemmy.ml feels kinda intrusive
!vegan@lemmy.ml specifically disallows debate style posts. Your best bet is probably either !askvegans@lemmy.ca or !vegan@lemmy.world
I’ll say as someone who mods !vegan@lemmy.world that we’re really not a debate community either. It’s not like it’s disallowed per se (especially within the context of “would two vegans be likely to agree about this?”), but I talk about some of the philosophy behind Rule 5 here and why it’s therefore discouraged.
Yeah, thank you for the clarification. Re-reading my comment, I realise I didn’t do a very good job of expressing this, as I didn’t mean to imply V@LW was a community for debate. Just that a polite question might be fine there, so long as it comes from a genuine desire to learn, instead of trying to make an opening to disagree.
Almonds are bad for bees? Huh
I’m not antivegan
Unequivocally, yes you are, and at that, you’re one of the most agonizingly stubborn and disinformed ones I’ve ever talked to.
Edit: Sharing this conversation here in the context of them being banned from /c/vegan so users can understand how completely full of shit this user is (yes, their actual argument they started at /c/vegan is that vegans starting from a position of “humans have rights” is a flawed position to start from and thus invalidates their argument for veganism):
Edit 2: Oh, and they have this thing where they like to reply to a single comment with several comments while claiming it’s because they “don’t want to engage in a Gish gallop” (paraphrased), meanwhile facilitating a Gish gallop by making an unfollowable branching tree of comments.
your link shows the same as the op thread: I’m primarily interested in a factual, scientifically accurate discussion.
My link shows that you’re interested in muddying the waters by either intentionally spreading disinformation or by speaking with absolute confidence about subjects you clearly lack the capacity to understand even the most fundamental principles of.
anyone can read it and see i grasp the subject, and reject unscientific work.
You grasp the subject so much that you’re too fucking stupid to understand the most basic facets of supply and demand that a literal 10-year-old could understand. lmao okay
I’m still unsure whether they actually believe what they are saying makes any kind of sense and could actually be deemed a rational thought or whether they are just pulling our legs. Either way, engaging in any kind of discussion with them should probably just be avoided
Educated stupid
I’m the authority in my own beliefs, and I am not antivegan
You sure love to argue against points that you perceive as supporting veganism, though!
It’s all about downplaying and denying.
i only argue against specious claims. I think there are fine reasons to choose to be vegan.
You sure love to argue against posts that you perceive as supporting veganism. You spent a whole day arguing against “most male cows are killed for meat before adulthood”!
you don’t know what my perception is. you can only speak to your own.
Transcribing the conversation here:
Recessa, ↑4 ↓1: That’s completely idiotic, milk exist because there’s demand for it.
commie, ↑1 ↓4: I think you understand that milk is produced as part of the mammalian reproductive cycle. can you describe the causal steps between demanding milk and it’s production?
friendlymessage, ↑3 ↓2: Do you think dairy cattle just randomly spawns on the planetary surface?
commie, ↑1 ↓3: do you think there’s a direct causal link between drinking milk and more being produced?
friendlymessage, ↑3: Are you fucking with me?
commie, ↑2 ↓3: no. I’m trying to illustrate that markets are not governed by natural law; they are populated by irrational actors.
friendlymessage, ↑2 ↓1: Yeah, but they’re not as irrational as you are and producing milk costs money. If there’s no market, they will stop because they are not fuckin lunatics and they don’t have infinite resources
commie, ↑2 ↓2: milk was farmed before markets existed. there is no reason to believe that will ever stop.
friendlymessage, ↑3 ↓1: That… must be the dumbest discussion I’ve had in a while. Please read through your comments tomorrow when you’re sober
commie, ↑1 ↓1: I’ve been sober all day.
friendlymessage, ↑1: Okay, whatever you say
commie, ↑1 ↓2: everything I’ve said is true. you’re objecting to reality, and being pretty shitty about it to me.
friendlymessage, ↑2: No, you’re just making a no sensical argument at all. Milk was farmed from dairy cattle because it was consumed by humans. It’s simple supply and demand. There is no rational argument at all that if mankind stopped consuming milk, it would still be farmed. Why would any farmer go through the effort to upkeep cows and keep them impregnanted to make them produce milk if they cannot trade it or won’t consume it? Yes, humans have free will but they won’t produce stuff with very high effort just for fun. Except maybe very sick minds that just enjoy animal cruelty. And you won’t elaborate what your actual point is anyway.
Also, not that it matters, but you’re arguing that dairy farming existed before the market is simply wrong. There has been trade between human civilizations long before we started domesticating animals.
There’s a common misunderstanding among a lot of .ml folks that markets are a capitalist thing and if you just don’t call them that then they don’t exist.
Everyone knows that history starts at the industrial revolution and no one had went “hey I’ll give you two goats if you give me some salt” before that.
… they’re not a .ml user
Also it’s just untrue lol? We know markets predate capitalism, I’d be surprised to find anyone disagreeing
Obviously nobody drank milk in the USSR shitlib
My paternal grandmother, who claimed to milk 200 cows per day every day, would disagree.
Thank you for your service o>
Appreciate it but your comment got auto corrected on two instances of “causal” to “casual” by commie.
Oh, I don’t use autocorrect, so that was probably my mistake. Fixed it now!
Removed by mod
In my defense: there already was a very deep comment chain before this and the whole thing was just infuriatingly stupid
Removed by mod
Can you rephrase their argument? To me it’s nonsense
Commie thinks that milk is just a byproduct of cows existing. Friendlymessage correctly points out that you need to repeatedly get cows pregnant, take away their calves, and feed them to produce milk and nobody would do it if there wasn’t a market demand. In essence, there’s zero situation where milk can be ethically vegan if that’s your ethical framework.
Commie sounds like a baby leftist that hasn’t read Das Kapital yet. He wouldn’t be trying to make this argument if he actually read Marx.
Commie implied that milk was farmed before markets existed and I was honestly baffled
I didn’t have a good grasp of history. apparently we mined before developing agriculture, which is wild to me.
What would mining have to do with agriculture and therefore milk?
mining was the Genesis if trade, but it’s assumed it would have followed trade. I also was mistaken that trade would, therefore, follow animal agriculture.
there’s zero situation where milk can be ethically vegan if that’s your ethical framework.
risking incivility, duh.
it’s an animal product
Commie thinks that milk is just a byproduct of cows existing.
I never said that
please maybe don’t bring it back here
no u
😾 meanie head
Edit: incorrect: You don’t need to keep getting them pregnant, you just need to consistently keep milking them. Milk production continues for as long as it is not left untaken. Definitely not vegan at all.
That’s absolutely incorrect. It’s a significant amount of time, around 10 months, but you have to repeatedly get a cow pregnant over their useful life in order to continue getting milk from them. They will go dry faster if you don’t milk them, but the cycle of pregnant/lactating/dry/pregnant is fundamental in managing a herd.
I stand corrected.
This is btw one main reason why milk is murder, because many of those calves are often killed for their meat. The other reason is that cows stop beeing productive and are killed way before their natural death, since the replacement calves are rdy to go (I think it was something like after 5 years with their natural life span beeing around 25, but I’m not sure if I remember correctly).
A bit oversimplified, but just to add a bit more context why vegans don’t drink milk.
friendlymessage is arguing that if there’s no demand for milk (ie people stop drinking milk), then the production of milk will fall or cease.
I have no idea what commie is talking about
I think commie begins saying that milk is naturally produced during the normal birthing of young. Then gets side tracked by the commercial aspect of milk as a product. Namely, no demand, no product. I could be wrong…
this wasn’t the start of the conversation
“I’ve been sober all day.” is my new comeback when someone insults my intelligence in an argument.
I like how the wording may imply that being sober that particular day might be in contrast to other days.
I’ve so been all day
Both of those people are morons. One for making the argument, the other for engaging in the argument.
Me, yesterday
Just went back to that thread. The discussion continued for 4 more hours after I stopped responding, and no, it did not go anywhere. That was definitely worth everyone’s time
It’s about the journey and the friends you meet along the way.
also me
some rhetorical hills were not meant to be treaded, much less died upon
Weird hill to die on, but at least you’re dead.
Reading that kinda hurts my brain
What’s the causal link between that comment being created and your brain hurting? Brains have hurt since before comment sections existed.
That’s why I have headaches every day
disagree, comment sections are the literal antichrist
I concede.
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Bringing this full circle, it reminds me of a time I saw an entire long Reddit chain nuked by a mod who was astounded that people indulged the “Europeans never ate beans before Columbus and if you call that thing that originally came from Eurasia a bean, you’re wrong” guy for so long.
It’s times like these that remind me I don’t get paid for this shit.
this is 1/100th of the insanity that happened on the reddit sub r/milk
I’m pretty sure there was a riot because the mods said almond milk was allowed or something like thatI love drinking almond milk right from the almond nipple
I like milk
Have you tried pilk?
Okay Homelander
No you don’t; that’s not possible. You don’t actually know what you like. How could your brain evaluate its own desires? And if you think you do, you’re wrong.
Blizzard, is that you?
Fuck you
No, fuck you
Well fuck me.
ok
Now kisth
