An American saying he has never been to Europe, without saying he has never been to Europe.
Barely 2/3 of the population of Zürich is even born in Switzerland. It is true however that most of the immigration is from the EU. But Zürich (and Switzerland in general) is rather the outlier here. Big European cities tend to be anything but ethnically homogenous, certainly not in Western Europe. What is however true is that Europeans don’t tend to think in skin colours but ethnic backgrounds, at least those who aren’t Nazis.
Huh? The Swiss are Italian, French, German and Romansch speakers. They are also divided along Protestant and Catholic lines. Switzerland is far more diverse and divided than people care to realise. They even had a civil war because of this. What made them live in harmony altogether is because of the agreed power sharing after the conflict. Iirc, the governing parties must represent the four linguistic groups.
North America has every group that is present in Europe, and plenty that are not at all present in Europe.
Plus wave after wave of European immigrants that settled in geographically diverse areas and interacted differently with the environment and the other people that came there since the beginning of colonialism.
They changed way more than France and Germany (or whatever you think is “diversity”) in the same amount of time. Way more cultural exchange and adaptation.
The Italian Americans that settled in Chicago and New York are very different from each other. The Germans that settled in Chicago and Texas are very different from each other.
We also have groups that you don’t have at all.
First, brown people. You have like 5. That’s the Othello reference. You preferred white people only, so I’ll continue with white people only (which makes me gag).
Mormons. Amish. Mennonites. I dunno, just country bumpkins. Pentecostals. So many.
I’m running out of white people. I just can’t help but think that brown people are really important here.
Americans tend to assume that any instance of a white person painting their face black is horrendous because their only cultural anchor for it is their horrendously racist minstrel shows and then get confused when people in other countries don’t follow suit.
Okay, but if Zwarte Piet is just supposed to be covered in coal then why did they also give him giant red lips?
It’s a little bit disingenuous to imply that Americans doing blackface is racist, but European blackface is innocent and traditional. It’s not like the Dutch had never seen a black person when Zwarte Piet was created…
As far as I understand, Zwarte Piet started out as a depiction of a black person. But it wasn’t used, like minstrel shows were, to push hateful and limiting stereotypes of black people.
I don’t think every American doing blackface must have been racist, but I think that given the cultural context in America, doing so will justifiably cause such massive offence that it can’t really be defended.
yeah this still just sounds like “it’s only racist when americans do it,” because yeesh, that explanation of where it came from isn’t helping your case.
Uh, are they literally depicting a minstrel-show black man kidnapping a white woman?
Euro racism denial is like those confederate losers who say it’s “just about heritage.” Or WWII collectors who seem to ONLY gravitate toward third reich shit. It’s such a naked “well, technically…”
Where’s the hate/limitation I spoke of? Or I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.
I also specifically didn’t say that the reaction makes something racist; rather I said it can make it indefensible. I feel like we’re not communicating well here.
Americans tend to assume that any instance of a white person painting their face black is horrendous
That implies that the instance we’re talking about, in this case Zwarte Piet, is not horrendous. See above image. The caricature shown is often present in historical American minstrel shows, yes, but its separation from the minstrel show does not place it in a vacuum that makes it not racist. It’s still a dehumanizing caricature of a black person, and goes far past the realm of Lawrence Olivier in Othello. I believe that is about as clear of an explanation of this scenario that I can give from my perspective.
Hey guys, the continent with several countries that plundered Africa for hundreds of years and invented the trans Atlantic slave trade has never had a problem with racism.
Always? I mean, there are a lot of different applications, maybe some of them are more innocent and we just don’t know enough about them. I always recoil when I see something like that too, being quick to judge rarely works out in my favor.
Yeah we did. The helper of Santa claus called schmutzli (wich translates roughly to dirty) goes around town to beat up children. But that was back in the day.
This is kinda excessively insulting and ignorant.
All my ancestors came to the US as poor white trash. The Irish ones were being actively starved.
Switzerland is like 80% ethnic “Swiss” and the rest of it is Italian, French, and German.
Honestly, to an American, European ethnic uniformity is bizarre. You’re so white and seem to think because you have Othello, you’re diverse.
An American saying he has never been to Europe, without saying he has never been to Europe.
Barely 2/3 of the population of Zürich is even born in Switzerland. It is true however that most of the immigration is from the EU. But Zürich (and Switzerland in general) is rather the outlier here. Big European cities tend to be anything but ethnically homogenous, certainly not in Western Europe. What is however true is that Europeans don’t tend to think in skin colours but ethnic backgrounds, at least those who aren’t Nazis.
That last sentence is either wildly untrue or there are far more actual Nazis in Europe than Europeans are willing to acknowledge.
There are a lot of Nazis indeed.
Huh? The Swiss are Italian, French, German and Romansch speakers. They are also divided along Protestant and Catholic lines. Switzerland is far more diverse and divided than people care to realise. They even had a civil war because of this. What made them live in harmony altogether is because of the agreed power sharing after the conflict. Iirc, the governing parties must represent the four linguistic groups.
This was my understanding, uniting in the first place wasn’t easy if I’m remembering right.
Lol. “Diverse”.
“They are all white therefore they are not diverse”- average North Americans
Lol. This has got to be a troll.
North America has every group that is present in Europe, and plenty that are not at all present in Europe.
Plus wave after wave of European immigrants that settled in geographically diverse areas and interacted differently with the environment and the other people that came there since the beginning of colonialism.
They changed way more than France and Germany (or whatever you think is “diversity”) in the same amount of time. Way more cultural exchange and adaptation.
The Italian Americans that settled in Chicago and New York are very different from each other. The Germans that settled in Chicago and Texas are very different from each other.
We also have groups that you don’t have at all.
First, brown people. You have like 5. That’s the Othello reference. You preferred white people only, so I’ll continue with white people only (which makes me gag).
Mormons. Amish. Mennonites. I dunno, just country bumpkins. Pentecostals. So many.
I’m running out of white people. I just can’t help but think that brown people are really important here.
No Mexicans in that list i see…
Doesn’t Switzerland have a blackface festival, or is that Sweden?
Americans tend to assume that any instance of a white person painting their face black is horrendous because their only cultural anchor for it is their horrendously racist minstrel shows and then get confused when people in other countries don’t follow suit.
Okay, but if Zwarte Piet is just supposed to be covered in coal then why did they also give him giant red lips?
It’s a little bit disingenuous to imply that Americans doing blackface is racist, but European blackface is innocent and traditional. It’s not like the Dutch had never seen a black person when Zwarte Piet was created…
As far as I understand, Zwarte Piet started out as a depiction of a black person. But it wasn’t used, like minstrel shows were, to push hateful and limiting stereotypes of black people.
I don’t think every American doing blackface must have been racist, but I think that given the cultural context in America, doing so will justifiably cause such massive offence that it can’t really be defended.
yeah this still just sounds like “it’s only racist when americans do it,” because yeesh, that explanation of where it came from isn’t helping your case.
I didn’t give an explanation so I don’t really understand
Idk about that one, chief.
Also, the reaction to something isn’t what makes it racist. It’s the content.
Uh, are they literally depicting a minstrel-show black man kidnapping a white woman?
Euro racism denial is like those confederate losers who say it’s “just about heritage.” Or WWII collectors who seem to ONLY gravitate toward third reich shit. It’s such a naked “well, technically…”
Where’s the hate/limitation I spoke of? Or I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.
I also specifically didn’t say that the reaction makes something racist; rather I said it can make it indefensible. I feel like we’re not communicating well here.
That implies that the instance we’re talking about, in this case Zwarte Piet, is not horrendous. See above image. The caricature shown is often present in historical American minstrel shows, yes, but its separation from the minstrel show does not place it in a vacuum that makes it not racist. It’s still a dehumanizing caricature of a black person, and goes far past the realm of Lawrence Olivier in Othello. I believe that is about as clear of an explanation of this scenario that I can give from my perspective.
What exactly is it that you find horrendous? Pretend I’m a very sheltered teenager.
I love when you guys try to hide your bigotry behind “culture”.
Hey guys, the continent with several countries that plundered Africa for hundreds of years and invented the trans Atlantic slave trade has never had a problem with racism.
I mean, the UK had televised blackface into the 70s, so that’s not entirely accurate.
I don’t mean to say that all other blackface is innocent, that being a perfect counterexample.
It’s always done to mock and dehumanize which is the first stage of all persecution.
Always? I mean, there are a lot of different applications, maybe some of them are more innocent and we just don’t know enough about them. I always recoil when I see something like that too, being quick to judge rarely works out in my favor.
David Sedaris has an interesting monologue about this.
It’s called 6 to 8 black men. Definitely worth a listen. That one is about the Dutch.
Yeah we did. The helper of Santa claus called schmutzli (wich translates roughly to dirty) goes around town to beat up children. But that was back in the day.
Black Pete better known as Zwarte Piet is Dutch in origin
But it did become a culture war issue in Germany, right?
must be a culture war issue in
SwitzerlandSwedenNetherlandsGermany
I was wrong, it was Netherlands. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/black-pete-christmas-zwarte-piet-dutch
80% ethnic Swiss Schenkelklopfer🤣👍🏻