I swear I read about how some companies have managed to come up with some break through to charge or increase battery capacity every few months, yet these are never make it to market.
Cold fusion is right around the corner!
Cold fusion certainly isn’t.
That’s the joke
The joke is fusion energy is just around the corner.
Cold fusion is a totally different topic.
Cold fusion is right around the corner!
i thought they’re already at “triple cold² fusion++” ;-)
yet these are never make it to market.
my personal favorite (but not a battery) were two different fake news about fans without any moving parts, one with electricity, conductors and shapes only, the other using ultrasonic somehow, how cool were these lies !!!
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/silent-microchip-fan-has-no-moving-parts-106236
“RSD5 is the culmination of six years of research by Dan Schlitz and Vishal Singhal of Thorrn Micro Technologies”
“Six years of research”, such a cool “product” and now that linked thorrn domain is for sale, how bad!! the world will never profit from their super “cool” invention !!!
“today” other bladeless fans (based on ultrasonic freqs) were anounced: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1471374-not-a-big-fan-new-solid-state-cooler-can-blow-air-with-no-moving-parts/ (“Frore is expecting to start shipping units in Q1 of next year.” which was news from 2022) but did you hear about that cool product beeing shipped yet? i would have, i’m somehow sure, but somehow i didn’t. maybe the “units” they wanted to ship were just something else *lol That article also says: “Frore Systems hasn’t announced any actual computers featuring its Airjet solid-state coolers. But the company is already in partnership with the likes of Intel […]” no actual result, but already partners like intel (intel, how does’nt that already fit !!)
The same nonexisting effect (fan without moving parts), abused (at least) twice. (i’ll just ignore those “bladeless fans” here that officially just have hidden “propellers”) but military says “twice” is already a scheme…
why should it be different for batteries?
if they produce batteries THAT good, they would never sell them but make them available only for rent, to maximise their(!) ROI (and not yours). so i guess it’s yafn - yet another fake news. i might still be wrong however, but i also like to be on the safe side of predictions ;-)
a theory: the richies offsprings startups desperately need other lies than their parents and grandparents who already used up nearly all language-allowed possible lies (as well as nonverbal lies, just watch tv for a while to see it in action) to distract people, companies and govs to ‘invest’ in them instead of i.e. in the future or in the nation, thus new nonexistant technologies is what the richies offspring found best to be their lies about.
Yes agreed.
But: Battery capacity, charging and discharging speed, price has dramatically moved in the last 20 years.
So while it’s easy to disregard revolutions, evolution has most definitely occurred. And many of them are fuelled by what gets hailed as a revolution and then, quietly, sneaks into the current production processes and makes it to market.
This one is definitely real and will be in cars (whether it’s Samsung or someone else), probably by 2027.
Every day it feels like we’re getting closer to battery revolution. It really makes you wonder how different the world will be once we have these incredible batteries actually working at consumer level.
Every day it feels like we’re getting closer to battery revolution.
It’s been “every day” for as long as I can remember. Some new world-changing battery tech is right around the corner, but never manages to appear in consumer vehicles…
Battery tech has still come a long way since say 10 years ago, even though the “next gen” stuff hasn’t made it to scaled production. Looks like this is the beginning of scaled production, though.
Looks like this is the beginning of scaled production, though.
Production is a tiny link in the supply chain.
According to the article they’ve sent them to manufacturers for testing and that’s it.
Even if they were able to make them they’d still be impossibly expensive for decades, as the implications of such a technology would be gargantuan.
Nah, see the battery density graph here. Batteries have made great progress already, and it’s accelerating because suddenly there are trillions of dollars on the line for anyone that can make big strides in battery technology.
Battery tech is constantly having huge breakthroughs. They are just come in small steps.
I mean a smart phone is literally a battery powered computer. It’s absolutely astounding compared to what we had 10/20 years ago.
Only thing I’m upset with is that we get more battery capacity, but not longer battery time. I want to clock my phone down to save power, but that’s not allowed.
Most phones have some sort of “Ultra power saving” mode that gives a lot of battery life.
Battery tech is constantly having huge breakthroughs. They are just come in small steps.
My guy, those are opposite things…
Depends on how you define “constant”. Battery prices have been falling year over year, no thanks to technological improvements.
If we’re referring explicitly to Academia and R&D, then OP is correct. You’re main point is that these huge breakthroughs haven’t affected the market, but OP isn’t arguing that.
You’re both talking past each other.
Depends on how you define “constant”.
No it doesn’t? Because there have been none. There have been steady and iterative advancements.
OP is correct
When was OP involved in this conversation?
There have been steady and iterative advancements.
Steady imo is a synonym for constant, and revolutionary breakthroughs can be subjective if referring to industry or academia.
When was OP involved in this conversation?
Apologies. I sometimes refer to an OP as the Original Poster of a thread in a given post, but perhaps a better use of language would be OC for Original Commentator.
The difference is this is actually shipping to manufacturers.
Solid state batteries are already being produced at scale. It’s happening.
Where are you seeing that?
The first news I’ve heard is Yoshino power selling solid state power banks. here’s a video covering them.
LOOOOLLOLOL Look at this clown
https://odysee.com/updated-solid-state-batteries-are-really#dd37d5928b5844f2f32dad02307e661d1b89f8bb
Can you imagine not having the constant traffic noise played into your ears like tinnitus, being able to maybe actually breathe the oxygen nature provides. That’s probably gonna be what it will be like. But still, ev are just a stop gap, more privately owned cars isn’t the solution in my humble opinion, it is a start towards it.
The tire noise EVs make is about the same as an ICE car at about 50 kph (30 mph) so it doesn’t make much difference on busy roads. It does make a huge difference in slow traffic.
It’s not tire noise that bothers me, it’s the folks who seem to think that the rest of us will think they’re cool for being able to hear their engine roaring down the road from a quarter mile away.
They’ll switch to very loud music unfortunately.
I would rather hear loud music than ear-piercing motor noise.
Totally with you, but tire dust is one of the major pollution particles from cars, maybe even the worst AFAIK. That, sadly will not go away but it is still leagues more desireable to have everything on electric than fossil fuel. Can’t have perfect stop good enough.
Yep, tire pollution is even worse with EVs due to their weight. But overall it’s still much better as you said.
It would help if cars went back to a reasonable size and not the absurdly large monstrosities that dominate the market today.
It’s even hard to find an EV sedan. There are like 3 models under $70k. Everyone wants to make SUVs instead.
Yep, I’m all for it. However, they would be still heavier compared to equivalents ICEs.
There’s no reason to think that will last. The kwh/kg of batteries improves by 5-8% per year, and we’ve been in the higher end of that range the last few years. Meanwhile, EVs are about 30% heavier. It will take a few years of improvement to make up that gap, but there’s every reason to expect this trend to continue.
Also, it takes a few years for new batteries to find their way into existing models. 1.08^4 = 1.36, which means improvements in batteries since 2020 could have made up this gap already.
About noise, above 30km/h electric cars are as noisy as gas powered one.
It’s better but not the panacea either.
It’s 30mph not kph. City streets should be limited to 20mph anyway.
Solution: 30km/h speed limit in cities, which is a good idea anyway for safety reasons.
Yes, it’s better for safety and health reason.
Plus 30km/h is in the speed range of bikes, so it become much more accessible to bike around in the city and more people start to do it.
They’re coming off a pilot production line and have shipped to vehicle manufacturers to see if they want to incorporate these into upcoming models.
Problem will be the price for the first run of this tech. They’re targeting “ultra premium” vehicles until they can scale and optimize manufacturing.
The market will segment away from the current tech anyway. CATL Sodium-ion with comparatively low densities but also extremely low prices per kWh will likely win the low-end market and the market for stationary solutions. This is just due to the much lower resource costs. The high-end will be up for things like this battery by Samsung (or other comparable pilot products). The current technology will likely be in a weird middle spot.
This is the real next step, every other battery hasn’t made it to production, but if they’re sending out working EV batteries to EV manufacturers and have production line running then it’s finally real.
And as soon as Korea starts mass producing long range, quick charge solid state batteries, the factories in China are going to start mass-producing them as well.
Regardless of what it means politically, this is fantastic news, I didn’t know they were actually producing them beyond prototype stage into commercial production.
Heellll yeah.
Yeah I was excited by https://www.amazon.com/Yoshino-Solid-State-B4000-SST-Generator/dp/B0CPPKFXP3 and although available a bit niche but it ramping into production where its going to be high volume. Finally a battery tech that has made it to market.
I don’t trust it. Off brand looking name. Has the high price, but then their upcharge for a few cheap looking solar panels is like a ridiculous $1400.
thats fine but I found out about it from a guys youtube where he ordered one and put it to the test. the guys channel has mostly been about his construction of a super efficient house with batteries and solar and such so I trust it exists as a product. not saying to anyone to buy it but was just showing they exist and are being sold. its not a wait and see battery technology anymore.
Are you talking about Matt Ferrel from Undecided?
Yeah…he doesn’t know a lot about batteries, really. He’s also doubled back after having some battery teardown reports shown to him and now says it doesn’t seem likely yoshino is using a real solid state battery.
So no. It isn’t likely “yoshino” gets to be the first to market with a real solid state battery in their product.
I bet the Europeans and Americans already work on imposing tariffs.
On Korean products?
Exactly. Our government doesn’t hate foreign EVs, they just hate China. That’s really it.
I mean it is just economic warfare. China substitutes their EV producers to undercut competing countries. They respond with tarrifs. That is business as usual since global trade exists.
It really shouldn’t be though. I believe in free trade, and tariffs ain’t it.
Completely free trade works as well as unregulated capitalism in that it’s terrible for the consumers. You’ll always end up with a monopoly.
I don’t think that’s true. There are other mechanisms besides tariffs and direct regulations that can help regulate markets, depending on what you’re looking for. For example:
- carbon taxes - charge companies for the cost of removing the carbon they emit; this would look like a tariff for imported goods, but they can reduce the tax by proving the carbon they emit is lower
- anti-trust - break up companies that break the law
- remove certain corporate protections - jail execs, increase liability (e.g. protect retirement assets and primary house, but not investments), etc
- more consistent and active enforcement of the laws we do have
I’m not saying we should flip the switch overnight to free trade, I’m saying we should be moving that direction. The only case I can see for tariffs is to reverse government subsidies. If we can prove China subsidizes EVs by X%, I’m fine with a matching tariff to level the playing field. However, if they’re merely able to produce them cheaper because labor there is cheaper, a tariff is merely protectionism and therefore illegitimate, and we should instead compete with automation or quality.
The tariffs are to compensate for the Chinese government subsidizing production.
Are they? Or is it protectionism?
I’d like to see some actual numbers here, because 100% tariffs seems to be more than just the subsidies, but also includes labor cost disparity.
Won’t matter much; Chinese EVs are so inexpensively made, especially with subsidies, while exceeding European and American auto safety standards that tariffs for the last five years haven’t stopped them expanding outside of Asia.
In addition, EVs are so much cheaper to produce, run and maintain for auto companies that tariffs aren’t going to make much of a difference stemming the continued EV manufacturing explosion.
Capacity and range will just keep going up, any tariffs have so far been and will be footnotes in EV story rather than any sort of relevant market mechanism
My point is the the EU ans US are shooting themselves in the foot in a big way with these idiotic tariffs. The Chinese will just clean up in all other markets and if they retaliate, the EU will lose their most important export market, which is China.
Oh please! I’d love to see Big Oil shrivel and die just like our societies and very planet have under their influence.
They will just take all their oil billions and buy up battery companies at the last moment.
They can do that with a lot of them, but not all. You can’t really sell an oil platform when nobody is buying oil anymore. The “stranded assets” is a huge motivator for fossil industries to prolong the switch to renewables as long as possible. Problem is the governments being complicit. They could have made clear paths from when on no new fossil investments were allowed to create a proper phase out.
How are they going to convert their assets in that scenario? The value of oil will just go down from here on out, eventually it’ll reach a point where it starts going back up again because it’ll be such a hard to acquire commodity for the few people that want it.
Eventually we’ll get to a point where the only people who use oil are rich people who can afford to run vintage cars and presumably pay some kind of carbon offset tax.
And even for vintage cars and stuff, I assume we’ll see better eco friendly and bio fuels being created that could be made in smaller batches without needing to use conventional oil as the fuel. Starting to see more and more of this on aviation already, and even some old warbirds have done recent tests on these fuels and run really well.
Yeah the US Airforce tested all their planes even the stealth bomber on a SAF that can be made from sequestered carbon, they said it passed all tests and that it would be a great way to be fuel independent, they’re especially interested as it seems to look possible to fit carbon capture and processing in a small enough package to fit in an aircraft carrier. Even if manned planes aren’t as useful in future conflicts we’ll likely see drones that use jet fuel replace them.
I mean they absolutely will when civilization collapses due to climate collapse and accompanying weather events, famine, droughts, and plagues.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-39810-w
I take solace in knowing that they can build all the luxury bunkers they want, but they will one day come to realize they are their tombs, protecting them from the world and species they damned, including for any of their muh legacy nepo babies huddled underground with them, for a couple million years.
I’d appreciate if people just like you would stop taking any solace and tolerating this bs. The ONLY reason this shit continues to happen is because too many people do nothing. Then when asked they get defensive and say, “What am I supposed to do?!” followed by “What are you doing?!” Like guys, you’re smart enough to recognize the perils of these industries, read journals and papers, and internalize the evidence, and you can’t fucking do a quick Google search on activism and even lightly contemplate entering yourself into local politics?
Come now.
I was part of Occupy, and it was mostly the fellow peasants being hurt from this system laughing us off the street. I made phone calls for Bernie’s primaries.
I still vote the least non-progressive out of harm reduction, and will vote for Harris, as I would have for Biden’s corpse, just as I did voting for his corpse the last cycle, and Clinton before when not many showed up. But I no longer have hope. That’s just so I can look myself in the mirror and say I did the right thing in the face of madness.
Good on you if you have hope, rage against the dying of that light. I’ve seen too much to believe that the nobility of the human spirit will prevail.
I was taught a lesson when I was younger that you cannot compare your trauma to that of another. I also learned that it isn’t rage which defines progress, it is determination. Apathy, a loss of hope, quells the spirit and stunts progress. Those not on the Right are especially individualistic. We cater to the spirit of independence, while also celebrating love and community, though always as individuals to individuals. It’s not “I” or “Myself” that makes the change. The shift happens when we step up together and change sets in when there is a united, achievable goal.
In near every recent movement the Left has been a part of with the exception of Bernie, there has been nothing that was clearly defined and clearly achievable. Just a bunch of angry people loosely pointing fingers. FeelTheBern DID work and imagine how things may have been different not if Bernie had been elected, but if we with our strength of spirit continued down a united path. Bernie’s ENTIRE message was never about getting him elected, it was always about us coming together and being active as one.
I’m sad that so many people seem to have forgotten that.
Too bad the lithium battery industry is no better. Those places are child labor slave mines and the environmental damage is astronomical…
This is true but coal mining is just as bad and requires orders of magnitude (mineral fuels) more excavation than all of the other minerals combined. If we can stop mining coal by using renewables the total amount of mining will be a fraction of what it currently is. Plus many of the other minerals can be reused where coal just ends up as carbon in the atmosphere.
This is exactly it. Of course battery production is harmful too, but not only is it less harmful than other sources to extract, you also don’t have to burn batteries to generate the power. With fossil fuels, the extraction is massively more harmful and then the use itself creates even more pollution.
Trees are technically a green, renewable fuel (if humanity used them that way). The carbon dioxide released is that which was sequestered during the tree’s life.
But oil is gathering material that accrued over vast amounts of time, and using that, dumping huge volumes of co2 directly onto the air. There’s no cycle happening there - just pure extraction for our extinction.
Just take a look where most of these rare raw material resources exist and note what attitude these countries have to the environmental cause. Zero, none. Russia, China, Africa https://www.dw.com/en/how-chinas-mines-rule-the-market-of-critical-raw-materials/a-57148375 I bet they won’t mind destroying whole local ecosystem just to get extra bucks Europe needs
You’re missing the big picture. Firstly because they’re reducing the cobalt requirements in batteries which will massively help. Also long-term lithium and cobalt are metals, they are found all over the place. Oil and coal are products that require life and as far as we know Earth is the only planet in the solar system to have organics like that.
But we can mine asteroids for materials to build batteries. Long before that we’ll have automation to mine the materials on Earth does not requiring human labor. Long-Term this is an improvement it isn’t a zero-sum gain at all like you’re making out
too bad AI is going to fuck it all up long before then
You really sound desperate to reject any possibility that hard work and human ingenuity can solve problems. I assume it’s because you’re scared of feeling you have to actually take life seriously and consider the implications of each choice you make.
I reject the possibility that exploration of workers isn’t going to be a part of this “human ingenuity”. Enjoy your electric cars all you like, but don’t pretend nobody was exploited in the making of it.
I’ve been saying electric cars are never going to catch in until they can keep up with gas on affordability and how far you can go. This is how you compete with gas!
Even if you do find a viable alternative, we need to change how we live and invest heavily in public transit everywhere
You’re forgetting the role of societal regulation, laws, culture etc.
Electric cars ARE catching on, at their current technology level.
That’s such a capitalist way of thinking. “The daycare down the street is never going to compete with ABC Baby Slaughter as long as their rates are higher!”
Charge speed is also extremely important. People keep waxing on about it only takes 15min to charge, but that’s is 3-4x as long as pumping gas.
Imagine if we all switched to electrical with those charge times, gas stations would become clogged almost immediately.
95% of charging would be done at home, since I get tons of energy from the sun. I have a feeling many other people would be doing the same. Highway stations are a different story though.
Non EV owners can’t grok how convenient home charging is, and the reality that station charging is a general rarity.
Most people on long-term road trips time their stops with meals anyway. If this became a reality, and charging infrastructure got directly built in to parking spaces at rest stops, then they can probably tolerate a 15 minute wait ti charge while they eat lunch.
Keep in mind gas stations wouldn’t have the same day-to-day demand that they do now. Most people will charge overnight, and the long-haul charge points or tourist destinations would be where things clog up.
We literally can’t all switch to electric right now so that’s not a problem 😉 but yeah, if I do try to imagine it, I imagine a world where most people charge their cars at home or at work, so the only problem to solve is upping the charging capacity along certain long distance tourist routes. But we can build lots of lovely high speed rail to help decongest those routes 😋
Amazing, now we just need charger infra to be more ubiquitous
Am I the only one who thinks this is complete overkill? 49/52 weeks a year, I never use more than 15% of my battery on any given day. I don’t need 600 miles of range, heck, 400 with a nine minute charge would be incredible. Basically drive 4-5 hours then stop for a bathroom break or bite to eat then keep going.
Then use the same technology to make a 300 mile battery that’s half the size and weight.
600 miles of range is amazing, plus you have to realize that it doesn’t always keep that 600 mile range. Also most people don’t charge their battery to a 100%, for longevity they only charge up to 80% for the health of the battery
Am I the only one who thinks this is complete overkill?
You might be the only one that thinks this is overkill.
49/52 weeks a year, I never use more than 15% of my battery on any given day. I don’t need 600 miles of range
Then this doesn’t sound like you fit the use case, which is fine of course, but there are many that do.
- Delivery drivers that may have to go to far places without consistent EV charging
- Winter battery penalty. That 600 miles may be 400ish in extreme cold which many people on the planet live in for at least part of the year.
- Heavy loads vehicles. The 600 mile number is used for the basis of comparison to today’s passenger sedan EVs. When putting these in heavy trucks, that 600 mile number may be cut down to 300 or even 200 miles, which opened up new avenues for EV heavy goods deliveries.
In short. Its not just about you.
Now we’re getting there!
now tell me why it isn’t sustainable
Gas-holes will tell you that the rare metals leak poison into dirt.
As if gasoline isnt already doing that.
They aren’t. They’re doing it right and into the air you all will breath and bake in for the rest of your, now short, life, suckers.
Because carrying a 2-ton metal box around you for every single trip you want to do is the least efficient possible way of doing so. Walk places, ride bikes, take trains, minimize car trips and promote carsharing for the occasional trips where cars are actually necessary.
I literally can’t walk to anything, I live in the woods.
56% of humans live in cities, and this is increasing over time. It’s cool that you’re the exception who lives kilometers away from the nearest store (poor planning in your village though), but the reality is that by proper city-planning and good public transit investment, most people wouldn’t even need to have cars at all.
I don’t live in a city, I live outside of one- they don’t block off the land around here and say you can’t live on it. I’m not interested in living in a city- I have a couple of acres, gardens, old oak trees towering all around giving me shade, I’m near a lake where I can go boating, I have space for my camper and garden tools. I’ve lived in apartments and townhouses, and when you live right next to work, then yeah, walking across the street to your job is great, but if you want something more than 1000sqft for your family and dog- you find yourself outside a city.
On the flip though, I can work from home so I drive a lot less than many, and our groceries are delivered so there are efficiencies gained by a single vehicle delivering to multiple homes instead of each making a trip.
And furthermore, I have enough space to put in a large solar array which I’m currently looking into. If I ever get an electric car, I’ll be able to charge completely off grid with green power. All of that is tougher crammed in a high density urban environment where you’re at the mercy of infrastructure out of your control.
Please tell us how environmentally friendly bringing infrastructure like internet, roads, electricity, water or garbage disposal to low-population density areas is, and how resource-efficient single family houses are. Go off living your happiest life, mate, just don’t preach about the sustainability of it when your eco-footprint is twice that of a city dweller.
As advice: for solar panels to charge an EV, you’re gonna need a fuckton of them. An EV battery is easily 50kWh, which means a 10kW solar installation producing full energy for 5 hours (assuming perfect efficiency on conversion). So be ready to buy a lot of panels.
Well I’m on well water, and I live near Amazon data centers so power was already close by at large scale. I have a septic system, so there’s no sewage lines. Internet is fiber, also already here because of Amazon and it runs on common telco lines that have been there 100 years and uses almost no power for transmission. As for solar, whole home solar arrays are common in my area, I could probably fit 30-50 panels on the sun side.
I’m not arguing that it’s more sustainable, just that endless population growth crammed into mega cities isn’t a great solution either- I think smaller communities with some measure of independence is probably more sustainable than city sized archologies with people crammed in coffins- that’s no way to live. With fewer people the slices of pie can be bigger. Cities use an unbelievable amount of concrete for infrastructure which is a huge pollutant and a finite resource due to the limited supply of special sand required.
There’s no easy solution- I’m just saying for many, it’s not as simple as just taking a bike. I feel like reducing heavy industry and global population and making Chinese trash products illegal would have a far greater impact on global sustainability, as those things use orders of magnitude more energy and resources than every country dweller’s cars combined. And don’t get me started on energy hungry crypto and AI farms- they use more power than the bottom 10 countries combined.
Industry has done a great PR campaign making people feel guilty and personally responsible while generating billions of tons of plastic bottles, bags, and packages which are 90% not recyclable regardless of the blue bins. Small changes at industrial scale would have far greater impact- like switching back to glass bottles or waste fiber bags. Not to say we shouldn’t each do our part, but we as individuals carry an unfair share of the blame for problems largely created by unregulated profit driven enterprises.
you’re the exception.
Let me know when I can buy it.
If you own an EV factory you can:
initial batches have already been delivered to EV manufacturers for testing.
Unfortunately, I do not
Well, hurry up and pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
Yeah. I’ve seen too many battery technologies die in a lab. I need to see it to believe it.
Yeah I often drive over 1000 miles in a day, sometimes as much as 1600+ so this is the only way I’d consider electric. Although it sounds like at a high speed supercharger it would be more expensive than regular gasoline. At least there’s progress.
If you average 60 miles per hour, then 1000 miles would take you 16 hours. There is not way you are regularly doing that. It’s not taking into account gassing up, breaks to get food.
I get the cost, but it should be an option to upgrade any current EV to this new style battery.
There’s some EVs that are integrating the battery into the frame in order to save weight. And it does save weight, but there’s no way to replace the battery.
That’s a super awful idea, so battery EOL = car EOL.
It’s not needed in today’s EVs. Things should be upgradable yes, but it’s not necessary to replace current existing lithium batteries with this and doing so would probably do more harm than good. The ones we have already outlast the vehicle’s lifespan, and go further than a tank of gas.
We don’t even know how to recycle these new types, at least we’ve made some headway with the current gen packs.
I’m thinking less in terms of lifespan and more in terms of range and charging time.
You shouldn’t have to upgrade your entire car to get a 600 mile range and 9 minute charge time if all that’s needed is better battery tech.
Two questions if that’s the reasoning: how often are you driving 600 let alone 300 miles? How often are you out of range of charging, if at all? Charging at fast chargers already only takes 20 minutes, the same amount it takes to pee and get a drink.
Charging at home makes range not matter. It’s not gas, you’re just always charged up. You don’t want to sit at 100% anyway, because again, it’s not gas.
The object is to get people to give up gas cars, you do that by providing a better range and a “refill” time roughly equivalent with sitting at a gas pump.
And, yeah, vast areas of the country do not yet have good access to charging stations:
https://www.axios.com/2024/06/25/charging-deserts-evs-electric-cars
https://www.eenews.net/articles/ev-charging-deserts-are-growing-in-rural-areas-study/
https://www.hbs.edu/bigs/the-state-of-ev-charging-in-america
You’re missing the point: it’s not like gas, and can’t be compared as such. If you have a home charger, you never need to use public charging except when road tripping, because your car charges within 4-6ish hours (my home charger does around ~22mi/hr), or overnight if you have a slower charger. You cannot do the same with gas unless you just top off at the gas pump every day.
I’m not trying to get into charging deserts right now - frankly, most people do not live in them, and thus make up less of the EV market at the moment. We haven’t even come close to meeting your given objective of replacing gas in even populated areas. Anyway, this article is about a 600 mile solid state battery that will only be in luxury $200k+ cars (which most people in very rural counties wouldn’t be able to afford), if at all. Not charging deserts.
Not everyone can have a home charger. People living in apartments and condos won’t have access. Heck, even people who do have their own homes will have to upgrade their electrical panels to allow for charging.
Until everyone can charge at home, it all boils down to how much range a car gets and how fast it recharges, which is why this new battery tech is such a game changer.
Again, the people that can’t have a charger at home will not be able to afford this. It’s not a game changer, it would take higher powered chargers than the ones that currently exist, making your whole “charging desert” issue more problematic (not to mention that you first had an issue with rural charging and are now talking about urban environments where charging access is easy to come by even if not directly in your apartment).
The solution isn’t prohibitively expensive 600 mile range batteries (are you still saying you need that on the daily?), it’s more chargers.
Once again, it seems like you think EVs work and charge/fill up in the same way as ICE vehicles. They don’t, and unless you’ve driven or owned one I’m not sure why you’d be speaking from such an authoritative standpoint.
The weight matters too. EVs are notoriously heavy. You have to haul around the batteries whether they are full or not.
“However, due to their high production costs, these batteries’ initial application will be limited to the “super premium” EV segment.”
The weight matters too. EVs are notoriously heavy.
This is a regular argument against EVs but its a weak argument in the real world application in the USA at least.
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The most popular EV by sales in the USA is the Tesla Model Y with a curb weight of about 4200 lbs.
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The most popular vehicle in the USA is (and has been for quite awhile) the Ford F150 Pickup which a curb weight of 4400lbs.
Yes, many of those F150 trucks are used in commercial or heavy duty applications legitimately, However, many are not. The F150 outsold the Tesla model Y by more than 50%. Why is the argument of curb weight only leveled against EVs, the recent addition to the roads, and not giant pickup trucks and SUVs that regularly weigh much more?
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Personally I like small, lightweight cars because they’re fun to drive and somewhat efficient. Obviously the f150 doesn’t light my fire in that regard, but the model Y isn’t exactly a nimble little thing either. Between weight and annoying tech (screens and driver assist mostly), I’m honestly not interested in modern cars at all
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I posted about this a week ago. The battery pack will likely be around 150kWh (Nio has a solid state battery car that will be produced that can do 577 miles on a 150kWh battery). The 9 minute charge is from 8-80% (according to the marketing material I dug up) so it is 432 miles of charge in 9 minutes. Considering fast charge costs like $0.50/kWh currently, I’m guessing most people will not be charging up that entire portion unless they are planning on driving for a long fucking time…after they have already been driving for 9-10 hours.
But that charge rate would have to come from a charger that can output much higher than current ones. The highest output you are likely to find is 350kW which would take 18 minutes to charge that 108kWh. So while this battery can charge that fast, you are not likely to be able to find a charger with that high of output for a few years. Still great to be able to get a couple hundred miles of range in 9 minutes. Solid state batteries supposedly have a quicker ramp up period and can take the full output for a higher percentage of the battery.
Your math checks out.
Charging a 600 mi battery in 9 minutes would require a charging station that can output somewhere north of 1.2 MW.
We need major upgrades to the electrical grid as well as doubling our electricity generation capacity for charging stations and vehicles like that to be common place.
There are already some charging stations in Germany offering 400kW. Still 16 minutes though. 800kW is just insane. CCS is currently capped at 500kW, so you would need MCS which is planned for trucks.
Fucking hell, imagine the requirement of a couple of megawatt substation for fast charging, urban power planners must be shitting themselves.
Replace the gas stations with that stuff and have a charging network distributed around parking areas.
Urban probably isn’t too bad, if it’s a proper city they already have power for the infrastructure of subways, lighting, and large buildings.
Where it’s going to be tough is putting these in the ‘burbs or the large areas of mostly vacant interstate. There’s just no infrastructure for them to build off of, and EV charging infrastructure is already one of the issues holding people back from more widely adopting them.
Yeah, just the random added load equivalent to 80-100 houses per car, any time between 5am and 9pm would be enough to send local suburban grids into a spin, especially in summer evenings when there’s peak loading already underway. A lot of infrastructure would need to be beefed up to make it reliable.
We have an EV that charges on 110v current. It’s not fast, but plugged in the previous evening it will be ready to go by morning. Not a huge draw on the grid off household current. Obviously, just like you point out, more EV will increase demand…but charging off 110v overnight isn’t going to be as demanding as a “gas station” for EV that all want fast charge for people that maybe don’t have charging access otherwise.
I imagine there would have to be some sort of organized system to pick charging time slots via the local electricity provider in order to keep the grid stable. EV owners could certainly get an electrical timer or via the EV manufacturer app to set a charging time.
Yeah if you’ve got home charging it’s not a real issue. We use 240v here in Aus so you can pull quite a bit out of domestic outlets before having to get serious and generally overnight charging to top up the day’s commute would be fine.
So it wouldn’t be a fast charger on every street, and you could always enforce limits by time of use pricing to put a dampener on peak loads.
I just wonder if utility planners might get caught with their pants down on this one. Like, could you say 5 years ago chargers might run to 800kW?
I’d say grid planners everywhere are under serious strain. The demands for air conditioning in public and private spaces are getting higher, the number of household electronics is climbing along with data centers constantly consuming ever more amounts of electricity…now we add EV charging to the mix.
Yeah, I’d say they haven’t been able to keep up.
You know, with charge times like that I wonder if roadside attractions will become more popular again.
Maybe I should start on the next worlds largest rubber band ball now.
Well most people are not needing to add over 400 miles when they charge up. That might be the case once a year for occasional families but most will be looking to add half that which is not much more time than it takes to fill up with gas. It might cause charging stations to offer more amenities. Or maybe the government could get off its ass and make it okay to put them in at rest stops, there wouldn’t be much of a problem at all.
Does fast charging reduce the lifespan of a battery like this? The headline is bothersome because my suspicion is it won’t last 20 years if you fast charge all of the time and whatnot. I realize that’s not a typical case but it’s good to understand the trade-offs.
Honestly, we do that. Almost every year we drive for 13-14 hours to visit my parents, which is something like 900 miles. We usually do 300-400 miles then refill gas and grab some fast food. We usually stop twice on this trip, sometimes three times if someone has an emergency. We also do some shorter 600 mile+ trips as well (in-laws and sibling are just over 600 miles away), and frequently drive ~200 miles, so we usually have 1-2 road trips each year.
Current EVs that get something like 200-250 miles per change would require at least four stops, and 30min or so per stop, which would add at least 2 hours to the trip. That turns a one-day drive into a two-day drive, and probably three days if charging stations aren’t readily available. For the shorter trips (just over 600 miles), we’d still need to recharge at least twice, which adds more than an hour to the trip.
So I’m absolutely interested in this kind of range. I don’t need 600 miles, but 400-500 would be good. Until they’re affordable, we’re sticking to our ICE family car, though we’re planning to exchange our hybrid commuter for an EV.
That is the case for some people but cases like that are pretty rare. There is no way I could do a drive like that. Current EVs are fine for the vast majority of people but there is the rare family that makes 900 mile trips once our twice a year. For those instances like yours, I’d suggest renting an ICE one or twice a year if you wanted to switch to an EV for your larger vehicle or get a plug in hybrid.
Definitely swap out that commuter car. A used Bolt is pretty darn cheap. I did some math and replacing our Prius C with one would save $1200/year in gas costs. And then there are oil change costs that you save and a few others.
A used Bolt is pretty darn cheap
Yeah, I’ve been looking at them, and it’s something like $13k, which is definitely in the reasonable range of prices, especially since I can probably get $5k for my current car.
However, I’m worried about battery issues. People claim it’s fixed, but I’ll be parking mine in my garage and there’s a lot of flammable stuff in there. So I’m a little hesitant. I don’t need to ever fast charge it since I only drive like 200 miles per week (and never more than 100 miles in a day, usually like 50), so trickle charging should be totally fine. If I can confirm that, I might just do the swap. Or maybe I’ll get a Leaf, which is in a similar price range used.
Our gas and electricity costs are pretty low ($3.50/gal and $0.12-0.13/kWh), so even at $13k, the Bolt would still need ~10 years to pay back for itself (and that’s not counting the opportunity cost of investing that money). I’m still tempted based purely on the convenience factor (never needing to go to a gas station again), but it’s not a slam dunk yet. If the car dies, I’ll certainly replace the commuter with an EV though, I would just rather avoid the hassle of listing and selling my current car.
From a purely climate perspective, it’s probably better for me to replace our family car. We get ~20mpg, and hybrids would get 30-40mpg, and a plug-in would get emissions-free for most of our around-town trips. That car is only used for very short trips (<20 miles) or long trips (>200 miles), with almost nothing in-between. But those cars are super expensive right now, so I’m watching the used market to see if I can score a deal.
I would advise against a Leaf, especially used. Nissan was great at getting a popular, cheap EV out the door but they have completely stagnated since then. The Leaf’s big issue is that the battery is air cooled. That’s fine if you live in Hawai’i where the temperature is in the 70s year round but places that experience heat will see a severe degradation in range relatively quickly. It’s not unheard of fire a 10 year old Leaf to only get maybe a dozen miles of range. There is also the fact that it uses CHAdeMO instead of CCS for fast charge. They have finally started to make adapters but they are $1000 and are not officially supported.
If you are indeed worried about a Bolt battery, you could always park it outside. There is not a catalytic converter for thieves to rip off so being out of a garage is not a big issue in that regard.
I would agree that switching will likely not make a ton of sense for you. Thankfully in my state, they offer a rebate for EVs on top of the federal credit so a used EV for us would pay for itself in about 5 years.
Or maybe I’ll get a Leaf, which is in a similar price range used.
If you will EVER need to fast charge then the leaf is going to be more annoying because it has CHADeMO and not CCS
Get the bolt unless you’re certain that’ll never be a problem even once, it’s seriously not worth it anymore
Source: longtime happy leaf owner who hates CHADeMO as it cannot be easily converted to CCS like NACS can
Every car show, they put out ‘concept cars’ that will never see the light of day.
‘New batteries’ are giving off the same vibe.
What a piece of shit title.
Care to add some substance to your complaint? I thought it was informative and succinct
It would be way more informative if we got battery cycles instead of years, density instead of “600 miles” and max charging power instead of minutes.
Off topic but I learned a new word, “succinct”, thanks!I agree with your comment, but also the title makes sense to me as a non battery person
Actually yeah, I came out unnecessarily harsh
TBF, it fits your username.
Battery cycles doesn’t mean much to a layperson, years, or average years, does.
If this works as advertised then it’ll revolutionize more than just cars. This is huge
So long as its not 2,3,4 times the price of current cars. Otherwise put them in busses and trains. Cost is strangly missing, I’m guessing because it is prohibitive.
