Seen on reddit and other sources:
https://old.reddit.com/r/fresno/comments/1hxqlx7/the_more_i_try_to_save_energy_the_higher_the/
Its already 50c or more per kilowatt hour… https://www.pge.com/assets/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/residential-electric-rate-plan-pricing.pdf
On top of the “The Electric Home Rate Plan includes a $15-per-month Base Services Charge”… because people were starting to get 100% of their power from solar and it was “unfair”.
Are you saying that someone who uses 10kWh of grid power per month should pay the same “connection fee” as someone who uses 990kWh per month?
Assuming they have the same type of connection, yeah, why wouldn’t they?
Is the person’s connection to the grid using less energy a smaller connection, or is it the same? If they’re the same, why should someone using less be charges less of a connection fee? Why would usage impact a fixed on/off fee, especially with per-unit usage rates?
You would have a point if it were possible to downgrade a connection to closely match your consumption. But that is not the case. You can’t buy a 20A service when everyone in your neighborhood has 200A. It’s a matter of safety: service lines need to be sized based on the upstream current limited, but the current limiter for your service (the main breaker in your panel) is downstream of that service line. If you put an undersized service line to your house and it develops a fault, it will burn up before tripping the neighborhood “breaker”.
It is more reasonable to charge you for the generation and distribution of 2A than for your 2A service to be charged the same “connection fee” as your cryptobro neighbor.
You absolutely could pay for a lower rating if you chose to also pay for the equipment to step down the supply to your intake values. That what a transformer substation is for, and why the factory and residential lines can share the same upstream but get different local outputs. It’s just going to be so much more expensive that you’re never going to go that route unless you’ve got a lot of people that want to do the same.
Is that not what your consumption fee is for? You’re paying for generation/distribution for the power you use, and the power company also tacks on a base fee to account for other maintenance costs that had been bundled but were being lost due to net metering.
From a collective perspective, it makes sense to pay to connect, and also pay per usage when you have the potential to have distributes generation, but centralized maintenance of the shared infrastructure.
Based on that comment, I think I understand the issue.
In my state, I can purchase power from literally any of a hundred generators. I pay them to put power on the grid, for me to take off.
I also pay a single grid provider to (ostensibly) transfer that power from where it generated to me.
What I am talking about here is the fact that both the generator and the grid operator have costs that depend on “consumption”. The more power I use, the greater the load on the grid, and the more infrastructure they need. They might be able to use a single transformer to adequately serve 20 low-use households; they might need 5 transformers to adequately serve 10 high-use households.
Even though all 30 of these households have 200A service, It does not make sense that the cost of these 6 transformers should be evenly assessed. It does make sense that two high-use households (who use a full transformer) pay the same total fee as the 20 low-use households (who also use a full transformer).
Generally you pay a grid connection based on the type of connection you have. A giant factory has a much beefier grid connection than single family residence, so the big factory has a higher connection charge.
No, they’re arguing that the price of power should be split:
This makes sense, because regardless of you much power someone uses, the costs associated with maintaining the infrastructure that allows them to draw any power at all remain the same. This also happens to be the model used in Norway, so it’s not an untested concept.
Another option, relevant when the cost of building the power plant is large and the cost of energy production is negligible, is that everyone connected to the grid pays a near-flat fee in total, which is distributed among consumers depending on how much power they use. I’ve never heard of that option being used before.
The way it works here (the Netherlands) the monthly cost for the connection to the grid depends on the maximum current and number of phases.
Some examples: a 1 phase 1A connection costs €11,12 per month, 3x 25A costs €168,99 , 3x 80A is €408,94 (there are other capacities available with different rates).
To me this seems like a fair way of doing it, someone who draws more power (or higher peak power) needs a beefier hookup and that requires beefier and more expensive equipment and cables.
Assuming both of those people use exactly the same infrastructure (which they do), yes.
The person with the higher usage will still pay more in total because the connection fee is just a base price, you’re still paying per kWh (which is forwarded to the companies running the power stations)
Ok, so, you’re in a neighborhood. You and 100 neighbors are each using 10kWh. 1000kWh total.
Now a heavy industrial user comes in adjacent to your neighborhood. They are going to need 990,000kWh. The distribution infrastructure is going to need to be upgraded to meet the new need. It is going to need to be upgrade a lot. Those upgrades are going to be extraordinarily expensive to meet the extraordinary needs of that new user.
Should you and your 100 neighbors each have their recurring connection fee jacked up next month and that charge made equal to the 101st “neighbor”?
Of course not. That’s just absurd.
The whole “local generation” issue you were raising is a red herring.
The “connection fee” would probably be flat by service size. Most homes have 200A connections so that would be one flat rate for everyone with a 200A ingress. If a business uses 400A, they’d get a different price but all 400A would be the same.
Get it now? That has nothing to do with amount used, but rather the size of your “pipe”
Cryptominer maxes out the same connection that you rarely draw 1/10th of. Why are you subsidizing cryptobro?
I’m not. They would be paying for their usage, I would be paying for my usage. Hence the flat fee for connection plus the cost of usage. It works the same way with sewer and gas (at least where I’m at) everyone pays a flat connection fee based on max size available to you and then you pay for your usage.
An industrial facility to the scale you are refering to will likely have its own electrical substation. Either maintained by the facility itself or contracted out to the power supplier.
Of course. I used that exaggerated example to demonstrate the nature of the problem, not to quantify it.
Cryptominers can use the same connection that you do; they just max it out 24/7, while you rarely use more than 1/10th of your connection.
Why should you be forced to subsidize your cryptoneighbor?
Connecting infrastructure costs roughly the same to maintain regardless if 10 amps or 1000 amps is running through it. The crypto miner pays the same fee for their standard service connection then pays per Kwh just like everybody else. Other customers are not subsidizing their connection nor their power.
By your logic, you are subsidizing anyone who uses more power than you and you are being subsidized by anyone using less power than you.
That’s simply false. A 1000A transformer costs considerably more than a 10A transformer, both to purchase and to service.
That is only true if the “connection fee” (distribution charges) are the same for both the 10A user and the 1000A user. When the charge is divided up on the basis of a user’s actual consumption, it is not.
You’re making the argument yourself here:
Yes. And that is true regardless of how heavily it is used, which means you should pay a flat rate for maintenance of the infrastructure you use, and another rate for the power you draw.
Residential buildings use standardised infrastructure, which then leads to the same standard fee for everyone. Industry that needs heavier equipment pays a different fee, because they require different infrastructure.
It’s not being used. The neighborhood is using the cheaper transformer, because it fully meets their needs.
They don’t install the big transformer until Cryptoboy moves in and drastically increases the neighborhood’s needs.
Why is the neighborhood evenly paying for that transformer upgrade? Why isn’t Cryptoboy paying for this upgrade?
Wow. Talk about moving the goal posts. You’re not even taking about the same thing anymore.
If you just wanna bitch about something, uh, then go in with your bad self. Or something. But rather than even attempt a rebuttal to any of the points raised in this thread, you’ve literally completely changed the scenario being discussed.
Like, why even bother replying? Your whole tirade doesn’t even make sense in the context of the thread…
I love when folks introduce hypotheticals, then pile on hypotheticals and nonsensicals, and believe they’ve championed their cleverness.
I propose a new term: feather man. For when even a straw man looks like a steel man compared to your argument.
B-B-But what if you fell into a volcano before you could make that proposal?
What then, featherman?
Checkmate!
I used exaggerated examples to clearly demonstrate the nature of the problem, not to quantify it.
The problem is still present even within the neighborhood. Residential consumers rarely draw more than 1/10th of their rated service. Crypto-bro comes into the neighborhood and his miners continuously max out his service.
The power company normally installs and maintains a single service transformer per block; but he alone uses as much power as the rest of the block combined. They have to install and maintain a second transformer just for him, but they spread those extra costs among the entire block.
Why is it reasonable for the power company to demand you subsidize his electrical connection than for him to pay for what he is using?
Why are the industrial factory and normal residences using the same electrical hookup? Seems fair if they use the same hookup.
Oh, they’re not? So then the factory likely pays one rate for their industrial connection that needs to pull more power than standard residential usage, and normal consumers pay a lower rate for their lower connection provided.
Exaggerated to clearly demonstrate the problem.
With residential housing, consider the cryptobro continuously drawing 180+ amps of his 200A service, while the rest of the community averages 10A, and one unit is down around 1.5A.
Why is Mr. Ampandahalf paying the same connection fee as Mr. Wunetty?
Because the connection fee is a fee for the connection, which is the same (200A) in both cases. This isn’t difficult.
… because consumption and service connectivity aren’t the same? Consumption and connectivity are two different line items on the bill representing different costs associated with the service.The high consumer will pay more on the quantity used, and possibly at a higher a per unit basis if it exceeds expected values.
From your hypothetical, no one is noted as having a different service hookup, so they’re paying for the same service hookup. What part of that are you struggling to grok?
E: removed unnecessary phrase
You would charge based on the kind of connection. A house isn’t going to draw the kind of power that a factory will, but you’re going to need the same equipment your house as you would as your neighbor’s house.
Residential crypto miners can easily draw more power than small factories. I reject the premise of your argument.
You specified energy in your example, not me. And I hinted that a hookup fee would likely be dependent on the rated power capacity of the user.
It is likely that a residential crypto miner would likely need to upgrade what they can draw from the grid.
In Norway we pay a different fixed fee based on the maximum hourly use (average of three highest hours) during a month, so that consumers that need a lot of effect from the grid pays the most.