• go $fsck yourself@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    10
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    5 days ago

    I guess I have trouble groking the difference between “liberal” and “leftist”.

    Could someone summarize?

    • ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      16
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      4 days ago

      None of the answers you’ve received are really correct.

      Liberalism has a specific meaning in political science. Modern Liberals support market economies, strong individual rights, and the right to own private property (not personal property like your house, car, or toothbrush - private property means capital).

      I’m going to use socialism as a proxy for Leftism broadly because Socialism + Anarchism is too broad. Socialism is a political philosophy characterized by public ownership of capital (aka the means of production). That is the primary thing that binds leftists together.

      Leftists view Liberalism as an improvement over feudalism, the system that it replaced, but criticize Liberals for protecting the status quo of neoliberal capitalism and the injustices, inequities, and evils it has perpetuated (slavery, colonialism, white supremacy, patriarchy, labor exploitation, etc.). They also assert that any Social Democratic reforms Liberals champion are ineffectual at addressing the core problems of capitalism.

      The reason that the leftists in the meme have guns is because Leftists have historically been violently opposed to fascism and have engaged in revolutions to overthrow feudal, liberal, and fascist regimes.

      • masquenox@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        4 days ago

        Modern Liberals support market economies,

        That’s a very diplomatic way of saying liberals are pro-capitalism and pro-imperialism.

      • Sauerkraut@discuss.tchncs.de
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        4 days ago

        Modern Liberals support market economies,

        Only partly true. Liberals support capitalist markets, but not worker owned markets (worker co-ops, market socialism.)

    • UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      23
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      5 days ago

      Leftists HATE capitalism. They want to replace it altogether with some alternative economic system (market socialism, planned economy or a combination of the two) depending upon the type of leftist. Differences in leftists also exist based on the HOW of replacing capitalism (violent revolution, democratic reformation and so on).

      Liberals ARE NOT leftists. Liberals believe that capitalism, with all its flaws is still the least bad economic system. They recognise some flaws of the free market and think that capitalism must be regulated to a certain extent by the government.

      So again, all leftists HATE capitalism. Liberals dislike a free market, but think that regulated capitalism is the least bad form of governance.

      Note: I know you didn’t ask this, but just wanted to clarify - capitalism ≠ market. There’s a large group of leftists called “market socialists” who want a market without the means of production owned privately.

        • UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          8
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          4 days ago

          Liberals and leftists both don’t want encroachment of the state into personal matters. Of course, there are exceptions to this rule.

          Now, what we refer to as the “far right” wish for expansion of the state for “moral policing”, to conserve traditional values and so on. That includes banning abortions.

          • LovableSidekick@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            7
            ·
            edit-2
            4 days ago

            Yup. While left and right are vastly different, one thing that’s consistent between them is “[whatever] is not evil when WE do it.”

            • UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              6
              ·
              4 days ago

              You find hypocrites in all groups. That’s what I meant when I referred to exceptions. However, if u look at raw ideology, liberals and leftists don’t want to encroach in personal matters, while conservatives most definitely do.

              • LovableSidekick@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                4
                ·
                edit-2
                4 days ago

                That’s not my experience at all - I see freedom-loving conservatives constantly propose to restrict freedoms, and liberals constantly criticize the imperfections in each other’s liberalness. “Live and let live” is a very rare attitude.

      • Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        15
        ·
        5 days ago

        That’s kinda iffy. Liberals are still on the left, why should leftist be delegated only to democracy haters? It’s basically making a special definition that isn’t used on any common level

        • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          2 days ago

          That’s a horrible misunderstanding of liberalism and leftism. Socialism is more democratic than Capitalism because it extends democratic control to production itself.

        • UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          14
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          4 days ago

          Ronald Reagan was a neo liberal. Would you consider him a leftist?

          Also, leftists are not democracy haters. Different groups of leftists have different stances on democracy. Anarchists for example, hate the idea of a state altogether (doesn’t matter if it’s democratic or not). Market socialists want to expand democracy in the economic sphere as well, with the help of cooperatives (be it worker, consumer, hybrid and so on).

          Marxist Leninists are a group of leftists that you could say are anti democracy (in the context that you are referring to). MLs believe that a revolution must be led by a vanguard party, i.e., a group of intellectuals, and smart people who truly understand Marxist theory. This vanguard party would form a state, create material conditions for democracy (educate the uneducated, or people brainwashed by capitalists). After the material conditions are created, you can achieve democracy and all associated nice things. Remember, this is in the context of violent revolutions, like the ones that took place in Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba and so on.

          NOW, I am NOT a Marxist Leninist. I do not condone their ideas. I will not expand upon my own ideas, as that goes beyond the scope of this discussion. The point is, not all leftists are anti-democracy. Most leftists active politically at least in the west are incredibly pro-democracy, want to expand democracy or are anti state altogether (democratic or otherwise).

    • dontgooglefinderscult@lemmings.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      20
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      5 days ago

      The left starts at anti capitalism.

      Beyond that, for this meme, liberals are guilty capitalists the same way a Catholic porn addict is a guilty Catholic. They’ll feel bad about homelessness, and spend billions “fixing” homelessness but never address the root cause… As that would interfere with their addiction. They’ll feel terrible about drug addicts existing and spend billions “fixing” it by selling them different drugs and for profit rehab… But will never address the root of the problem. Liberals feel awful about x, but will never solve x of it interferes with capital. It’s why they love rainbow capitalism, they get to feel good about finally doing the right thing… While making profit.

      Leftists want to solve the problem, no matter the cause. They don’t support gay people because it’s cheap, easy, and allows for profit; they do it because all people have inherent rights. They don’t want to build all inclusive, hyper expensive, heavily monitored and limited access housing for the homeless, they just want to build homes and ensure those effected have food and water.

      Liberals are not left wing. Socially they only hold a vague mirage of left wing ideals as long as it doesn’t harm capitalism. Economically, they’re as right wing as any conservative or fascist. Fun fact fascism has only ever sprung from liberals.

    • AnIndefiniteArticle@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      10
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      5 days ago

      After the French Revolution, they arranged the seats in the legislature with the most progressive on the left, and the most conservative on the right.

      This left-right axis is often still used in modern politics.

      On the American politics version of this spectrum, “liberal” defines those in the center who are in the middle and who accept whatever they are given. Leftist progressives fight for a better future.

      • masquenox@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        edit-2
        4 days ago

        Short answer liberals are the leftmost of the centrists,

        Liberals are not “centrists.” They are right-wingers. If you are pro-capitalism, you are a right-winger. It doesn’t matter how “nice” liberals try to pretend to be about it.

        No ifs, ands or buts.

    • Sonicdemon86@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      4 days ago

      Liberal is the opposite of authoritarianism. Left politicies are less capitalism and more socialism. What America calls Liberal is more authoritative than what should be considered central party. Like in the political compass “Liberals” are middle middle top right, while “conservatives” are upper middle top right.

    • ShaggySnacks@lemmy.myserv.one
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      5 days ago

      To me, a leftist is someone who looks at the status quo and goes this is fucked up. We need to fix it.

      A liberal looks at the status quo and goes “this isn’t this bad.” Think Bill Clinton or Tony Blair. Politicans who continued to maintain the status quo after their conservative predecessors.

      If a leftist politician served after a conservative politician. The leftist politician would be like “fuck this” and upend the status quo.

      • UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        4 days ago

        What you are saying is only applicable for North America/ Europe. Liberalism is already the status quo there, which is why liberals defend it. However what is liberalism in the first place?

        Liberalism: “Regulated capitalism is the least bad economic system. Also, the state shouldn’t encroach upon the personal matters of an individual.”

        Leftists: “Capitalism is the cause of all problems. Fuck capitalism. The eventual goal should be to have a stateless, classless society. However, we disagree quite a lot on how to achieve this goal. This goal is called communism. Some of us say that we should do a violent revolution. Some of us believe that we can abolish capitalism using democratic processes. Some of us believe that to achieve communism, we need a temporary powerful state led by smart people, intellectuals, etc. to achieve material conditions necessary for communism. Some of us believe that the previous idea is absolute dog shit, and instead, we can achieve communism slowly, using non state actors like cooperatives, unions, syndicates and so on.”

        Conservatives: “Capitalism is good. The morals and traditions of our ancestors were better than the ones coming up now, and deviating from them would cause a lot of harm. We need to take steps to conserve these ideas.”

        Fascists: “All problems in society are because of group X. We need to get rid of group X by either converting them to our ways (if possible), deporting them from our borders, or cleansing our country of them entirely by killing them. Democracy is a slow and inefficient process. We should give power to a strong, smart leader who can get things done a lot more efficiently.”

      • Goldmage263@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        4 days ago

        I thought liberalism literrally meant that personal freedoms are the most important thing to that person and the belief is the government should not restrict them and needs to actively protect them.

        • UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          4 days ago

          That’s one of their beliefs, sure. However, their economic beliefs are still kinda pro capitalism.

          • Goldmage263@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            4 days ago

            Fair, I’m just curious why ShaggySnacks mentioned the status quo thing when personal freedoms are being encroached on and revoked.

    • Quadhammer@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      4 days ago

      Leftists want full auto space communism.

      Liberals want rights and liberties for all.

      Both can overlap or not depending.

    • Doom@ttrpg.network
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      5 days ago

      No because a lot of it is bullshit people just drawing lines in the sand of an already silly way to plot political stances.

      The truth is all liberals should be leftists. Politics leans left and right and people are broken down from there.

      Currently people use the term “leftist” in too many ways but generally it suggests being against the system or capitalism. A liberal or liberalism is easy to Google but usually people mean it as left leaning folk who buy into the system, capitalism or neoliberal politics.

        • Doom@ttrpg.network
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          4 days ago

          Lmfao it’s literally in the names but okay.

          A Liberal was a supporter of laise faire capitalism, currently a Liberal is more of a socially minded progressive. The term changed and will continue to change.

          Leftist is literally a left leaning individual that’s it. People use it a word to lump together a lot of groups especially those with a more socialist or anarchist sort of mindset. The term changed and will continue to change.

          So no, they really don’t mean anything exactly and people use them different and unclearly all the time. A liberal is a leftist, even if individuals out there reject that. Politically speaking you’re either right or left leaning, are you thinking liberals are right leaning? No. Then they’re leftists lol.

          The worst thing for the socialist movement are other socialists. This probably can be said about any left leaning group. Everyone has to have a different title to differentiate their leftism from other leftists