Unfortunately most of psychotherapy is individualistic and focused on getting people “functional” again so that they can generate a profit for capitalists…
It’s kind of like saying that the individual who isn’t responding well to the abysmal conditions created by capitalism is “broken” and not the system itself. So most of the time you are gonna get a “best I can do is give you some pills that dull all your emotions, good and bad”.
tbh I’m much more concerned about “mentally healthy” non-socialists. Either they must have been be brainwashed into ignorance or something human is missing inside of them…
(though I admit that this assessment is based on superficial knowledge)
Usually I also recommend the following podcast during discussions like these, I have not listened to it myself but only heard good things about it (it’s a leftist mental health podcast, focusing on systemic issues, especially capitalism, for a change):
from what i experienced in the last 15 years of psychotherapy: a good therapist wants you “functional” in the sense that you can live your life without major self-induced hiccups and with as much self-determination as possible, and not “functional” as a machine. But it seems that even this aspect of healthcare gets corrupted by for-profit healthcare - the people going there are probably expecting to just get fixed like a car (which means you will land back at you therapist or psychiatrist sooner rather than later), and the medical institutions have an incentive in not really fixing your issues.
This is why I knew I found the right therapist when she asked what I’ve been stressed about and I said “the current state of politics” and she just said “oh yeah, fair” and we started working on how to manage it while understanding that the root cause is still truly as bad as it is.
I totally agree with your standpoint, but would like to add that in this whole thread no one has mentioned that many people do need help as individuals. While I have made many negative experiences with therapists only trying to get me functional again, analyzing mental health problems away isn’t going to work either. I feel like focusing only on the structural problems in this context is ignoring the individuals fighting mental health problems. That’s what also frustrated me with the antipsychiatric movement.
We should be able to discuss both the structural and individual levels, because both are essential to actually solving any problems.
Half of my mental health problems would be solved if the state and capitalism didn’t require themselves to exist.
Generalized Anxiety Disorder? Majorly lessened if I don’t need to worry about food or shelter being stripped away if someone in my family gets sick or we lose income.
ADHD? Managed if ADHD meds weren’t locked on the governmental level with cocaine and heroin, and the companies actually made more of the life saving medicine they hold hostage.
Bipolar disorder and Autism have no pills to solve, only mask the problems until they bubble. Ask me what medications I’ve tried for Bipolar, and I’ll tell you why they didn’t work.
Ask me what therapy methods I’ve tried and explained to my therapist network “Therapy helps with some things, but it doesn’t solve the major issues of stress, anexity, and depression” before they kicked me off for a profit margin hidden as “This person doesn’t want help, because they are too caught up in the lives of themselves and their families.”
Yes, there’s medications that help people. But after some point, the problem is no longer with that person, its the environment. Sometimes its an abusive family member. Sometimes it a toxic workplace. Most of the time its a death cult called capitalism.
For sure, like I said I agree that it is a structural problem. But we won’t abolish capitalism and get rid of its brainwashing anywhere soon. In an utopian future, I can imagine all kinds of better ways how neurodiversity and generally diversity could be better incorporated into society and where we wouldn’t need psychiatric institutions etc. But we unfortunately do live under capitalism and people are clearly affected by it. So, for now we certainly need some sort of help for mental health problems. It is up for debate, how this should look and I don’t particularly like the psychiatric complex. But people need help nonetheless. A person with mental health problems may try to analyze capitalism as the root cause of their problems, but this won’t dismantle capitalism either. At best this a form of self-efficacy, at worst a way to try to avoid overcoming deeper individual struggles.
ETA: and yes, I totally understand where you are coming from with the neurodivergent angle. If you just don’t fit in society and the capitalist system, you get sanctioned and bullied for it all the time. This certainly won’t go away with therapy apart from maybe making you fit in a bit better at your own cost (or even worse, brainwashing you to repress your own expressions). Same goes for being otherwise divergent, like being trans.
agree with you here too. Individual problems exist and should be taken seriously as well. I took that as a given and thus didn’t mention it and wanted to focus more on the side that gets neglected faaaar too often
Socialism will not solve all mental health issues, people will always have personal problems, familiar predispositions etc. etc.
However, a lot of conditions/triggers/main reason would be resolved
As you said, it’s both structural/systemic and individual problems. We need both a change in economics and social structures, that empower the working people of this world, bring the economy into their ownership and democratise it and high quality non-dogmatig and unstigmatised free healthcare, social services and so on
I totally get why you highlighted the structural side of it. In discussions of mental health problems it usually gets dismissed or ignored. In capitalist fashion, many of these problems get blamed on the individuals :(
Therapy can be used for a lot of other things, though, and I find this take can scare a lot of people away from it.
They’re only human so you gotta find someone who’s good and works well for you but they’re great for relationships or trauma or just venting. Mine’s awesome and doesn’t try to tell me that actually working is so great or that my ADHD is problem.
There are so many people who really need it that don’t go because “it doesn’t work anyway”.
Sorry if it seemed like I said that therapy doesn’t work. My comment was not meant as such
I was more talking about the function of psychotherapy for mental illnesses under capitalism and it’s structural purpose from the perspective of political economy
According to my wife (also a therapist), the purpose of therapy is to generate enough paperwork to satisfy the whimsy of the government and private insurers.
After that, if she’s actually helped people and gotten paid, it’s a bonus.
Unfortunately your initial comment did sound a fair bit like “therapy doesn’t work it just serves capitalism.“ I would be very careful with how you phrase that point.
huh, I assumed that because of me never mentioning the effectives that it would be perceived as neutral since I didn’t criticise that aspect, but rather psychotherapy from a meta pov
It’s kind of like saying that the individual who isn’t responding well to the abysmal conditions created by capitalism is “broken” and not the system itself. So most of the time you are gonna get a “best I can do is give you some pills that dull all your emotions, good and bad”.
It’s me ✨😎🥰
When I constantly stated the same reasons for attending mental healthcare when I got there, after a shake up in the ownership of the network, I was terminated coverage by my place because no one there got it into their head:
Major sources of depression and anxiety aren’t fixable with therapy and pills, they are only fixed with a major change in income and political climate. Even if I somehow have a job that pays 8 figures, it doesn’t solve the social issues of me and my friends being future victims with no way to stop it.
And then they just went “Well since you’re too focused on what you can’t change, you can’t change at all, buh-bye!”
At some point I just gotta wonder who’s actually mentally ill. The people who see the truth and try to change it despite the lack of influence, or the people who ignore it and say everything is okay.
I mean, when I expressed to my last therapist of the network “Hey this place in town, violated the state labor laws and I’m trying to figure out if I can sue them.” she just said “But I like the gas in my tank.”
I’m sorry you had to go through all that, it sounds horrible and should never have been allowed to happen in that way…
Reading this makes me both melancholy and angry. Capitalism is directly (and indirectly) responsible for many uncountable injuries, injustices and indiscretions…
I struggle with my mental health quite a lot as well (+ neurodivergency. medial asd diagnosis is otw lol), though even in Germany I’m in a privileged positions and just can’t seem to get better no natter what I do. The only thing keeping me alive is revolutionary optimism and trying to contribute to the progress of humanity in the best way I am able to
Stay strong ✊ I know this probably doesn’t mean much but you have my solidarity and please know that many people are fighting for a just tomorrow. not all is lost
it’s more like, a lot of psychotherapy is individualistic and focused on getting people functional again, so they can do what is important and meaningful to them.
that might be in alignment with capitalism or social norms, or it might not be.
that’s not what I said, though? I was expressing my worry about ppl who look at the state of the world and are perfectly happy/unworried and unaffected by the circumstances emotionally, mb even missing some emotional empathy. I was not talking about their “humanness” as a whole…
Nowhere did I say smth about ppl who “I don’t agree with”, I disagree with some socialists too on many points ^^’
Unfortunately most of psychotherapy is individualistic and focused on getting people “functional” again so that they can generate a profit for capitalists…
It’s kind of like saying that the individual who isn’t responding well to the abysmal conditions created by capitalism is “broken” and not the system itself. So most of the time you are gonna get a “best I can do is give you some pills that dull all your emotions, good and bad”.
tbh I’m much more concerned about “mentally healthy” non-socialists. Either they must have been be brainwashed into ignorance or something human is missing inside of them…
(though I admit that this assessment is based on superficial knowledge)
Capitalism causes depression - video by azure scapegoat
EDIT:
Usually I also recommend the following podcast during discussions like these, I have not listened to it myself but only heard good things about it (it’s a leftist mental health podcast, focusing on systemic issues, especially capitalism, for a change):
“It’s Not Just In Your Head”
https://antennapod.org/deeplink/subscribe/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanchor.fm%2Fs%2F1cf1dbd4%2Fpodcast%2Frss&title=It's+Not+Just+In+Your+Head
from what i experienced in the last 15 years of psychotherapy: a good therapist wants you “functional” in the sense that you can live your life without major self-induced hiccups and with as much self-determination as possible, and not “functional” as a machine. But it seems that even this aspect of healthcare gets corrupted by for-profit healthcare - the people going there are probably expecting to just get fixed like a car (which means you will land back at you therapist or psychiatrist sooner rather than later), and the medical institutions have an incentive in not really fixing your issues.
This is why I knew I found the right therapist when she asked what I’ve been stressed about and I said “the current state of politics” and she just said “oh yeah, fair” and we started working on how to manage it while understanding that the root cause is still truly as bad as it is.
I totally agree with your standpoint, but would like to add that in this whole thread no one has mentioned that many people do need help as individuals. While I have made many negative experiences with therapists only trying to get me functional again, analyzing mental health problems away isn’t going to work either. I feel like focusing only on the structural problems in this context is ignoring the individuals fighting mental health problems. That’s what also frustrated me with the antipsychiatric movement.
We should be able to discuss both the structural and individual levels, because both are essential to actually solving any problems.
Half of my mental health problems would be solved if the state and capitalism didn’t require themselves to exist.
Generalized Anxiety Disorder? Majorly lessened if I don’t need to worry about food or shelter being stripped away if someone in my family gets sick or we lose income.
ADHD? Managed if ADHD meds weren’t locked on the governmental level with cocaine and heroin, and the companies actually made more of the life saving medicine they hold hostage.
Bipolar disorder and Autism have no pills to solve, only mask the problems until they bubble. Ask me what medications I’ve tried for Bipolar, and I’ll tell you why they didn’t work.
Ask me what therapy methods I’ve tried and explained to my therapist network “Therapy helps with some things, but it doesn’t solve the major issues of stress, anexity, and depression” before they kicked me off for a profit margin hidden as “This person doesn’t want help, because they are too caught up in the lives of themselves and their families.”
Yes, there’s medications that help people. But after some point, the problem is no longer with that person, its the environment. Sometimes its an abusive family member. Sometimes it a toxic workplace. Most of the time its a death cult called capitalism.
For sure, like I said I agree that it is a structural problem. But we won’t abolish capitalism and get rid of its brainwashing anywhere soon. In an utopian future, I can imagine all kinds of better ways how neurodiversity and generally diversity could be better incorporated into society and where we wouldn’t need psychiatric institutions etc. But we unfortunately do live under capitalism and people are clearly affected by it. So, for now we certainly need some sort of help for mental health problems. It is up for debate, how this should look and I don’t particularly like the psychiatric complex. But people need help nonetheless. A person with mental health problems may try to analyze capitalism as the root cause of their problems, but this won’t dismantle capitalism either. At best this a form of self-efficacy, at worst a way to try to avoid overcoming deeper individual struggles.
ETA: and yes, I totally understand where you are coming from with the neurodivergent angle. If you just don’t fit in society and the capitalist system, you get sanctioned and bullied for it all the time. This certainly won’t go away with therapy apart from maybe making you fit in a bit better at your own cost (or even worse, brainwashing you to repress your own expressions). Same goes for being otherwise divergent, like being trans.
agree with you here too. Individual problems exist and should be taken seriously as well. I took that as a given and thus didn’t mention it and wanted to focus more on the side that gets neglected faaaar too often
Socialism will not solve all mental health issues, people will always have personal problems, familiar predispositions etc. etc.
However, a lot of conditions/triggers/main reason would be resolved
As you said, it’s both structural/systemic and individual problems. We need both a change in economics and social structures, that empower the working people of this world, bring the economy into their ownership and democratise it and high quality non-dogmatig and unstigmatised free healthcare, social services and so on
I totally get why you highlighted the structural side of it. In discussions of mental health problems it usually gets dismissed or ignored. In capitalist fashion, many of these problems get blamed on the individuals :(
Therapy can be used for a lot of other things, though, and I find this take can scare a lot of people away from it.
They’re only human so you gotta find someone who’s good and works well for you but they’re great for relationships or trauma or just venting. Mine’s awesome and doesn’t try to tell me that actually working is so great or that my ADHD is problem.
There are so many people who really need it that don’t go because “it doesn’t work anyway”.
Sorry if it seemed like I said that therapy doesn’t work. My comment was not meant as such
I was more talking about the function of psychotherapy for mental illnesses under capitalism and it’s structural purpose from the perspective of political economy
Speaking as a therapist (seriously) the purpose of therapy is whatever the client says it is.
As a therapist looking at some of the new therapy organisations that rhyme with Fetta Yelp, I totally agree with you
According to my wife (also a therapist), the purpose of therapy is to generate enough paperwork to satisfy the whimsy of the government and private insurers.
After that, if she’s actually helped people and gotten paid, it’s a bonus.
Unfortunately your initial comment did sound a fair bit like “therapy doesn’t work it just serves capitalism.“ I would be very careful with how you phrase that point.
huh, I assumed that because of me never mentioning the effectives that it would be perceived as neutral since I didn’t criticise that aspect, but rather psychotherapy from a meta pov
The opening statement kind of sets the tone but it’s not a huge deal. Just something to consider.
Thank you for your feedback! I still struggle with expressing my thoughts in a way that’d help prevent misunderstandings…
It’s me ✨😎🥰
When I constantly stated the same reasons for attending mental healthcare when I got there, after a shake up in the ownership of the network, I was terminated coverage by my place because no one there got it into their head:
And then they just went “Well since you’re too focused on what you can’t change, you can’t change at all, buh-bye!”
At some point I just gotta wonder who’s actually mentally ill. The people who see the truth and try to change it despite the lack of influence, or the people who ignore it and say everything is okay.
I mean, when I expressed to my last therapist of the network “Hey this place in town, violated the state labor laws and I’m trying to figure out if I can sue them.” she just said “But I like the gas in my tank.”
I’m sorry you had to go through all that, it sounds horrible and should never have been allowed to happen in that way…
Reading this makes me both melancholy and angry. Capitalism is directly (and indirectly) responsible for many uncountable injuries, injustices and indiscretions…
I struggle with my mental health quite a lot as well (+ neurodivergency. medial asd diagnosis is otw lol), though even in Germany I’m in a privileged positions and just can’t seem to get better no natter what I do. The only thing keeping me alive is revolutionary optimism and trying to contribute to the progress of humanity in the best way I am able to
Stay strong ✊ I know this probably doesn’t mean much but you have my solidarity and please know that many people are fighting for a just tomorrow. not all is lost
it’s more like, a lot of psychotherapy is individualistic and focused on getting people functional again, so they can do what is important and meaningful to them.
that might be in alignment with capitalism or social norms, or it might not be.
Be careful, “people who disagree with me are non-humans” is a dangerous path to start down…
that’s not what I said, though? I was expressing my worry about ppl who look at the state of the world and are perfectly happy/unworried and unaffected by the circumstances emotionally, mb even missing some emotional empathy. I was not talking about their “humanness” as a whole…
Nowhere did I say smth about ppl who “I don’t agree with”, I disagree with some socialists too on many points ^^’