Just recently we had a popular post: “The Will To Change Men, Masculinity, And Love By bell hooks”. I can take a couple quotes from the preface of that book:
I had not been able to confess that not only did I not understand men, I feared them.
Militant feminism gave women permission to unleash their rage and hatred at men…
I think too many feminists do hate men, and to say “no true feminist hates men” is falling into the no true scotsman fallacy. Typically the loudest people in a group are the most extreme and I don’t believe most feminists hate men, but I also think it’s understandable how some people do believe that.
To share some of my own experiences:
I’m a cis, heterosexual, white male. I also pretty heavily defend human rights, try not to be a skeeze ball, and like to think of myself as generally a pretty decent dude. During the height of the MeToo movement and the #NotAllMen thing, though, it really felt like society as a large, or at least the parts of it I want to occupy, viewed many aspects of my simple existence as villainous.
Believe me, I KNOW that no one reasonable has ever thought it was all men, or all white people, or all straight people, or all cis gendered people. That doesn’t stop it from hurting anymore when you’re walking around the city with a woman you consider a really good friend, and she’s posting pictures of stickers that actually DO say “all men suck” she finds to social media.
I’m also not blind. I know this is the same treatment that marginalized groups have faced since the dawn of time. Maybe it’s finally time for men to get theirs. Or, we can all acknowledge that any condemnation over an immutable human feature just plain sucks. Just my 2 cents on the matter.
During the height of the MeToo movement and the #NotAllMen thing, though, it really felt like society as a large, or at least the parts of it I want to occupy, viewed many aspects of my simple existence as villainous.
I just stopped bothering. My input was clearly neither desired nor welcome, so I stopped offering it. I’ll happily stay out of the way, but if they want active support I want to stop hearing that my opinion isn’t valid on any given set of subjects, before I even voice it.
Can you elaborate on which aspects of your simple existence were perceived as villainous?
Mostly the “man” part. Pretty clear in the OP I thought. I was quite simply born as a male, and happened to identify as that gender. A significant enough portion of the population seems to believe that, because a patriarchy exists, all men have benefited from it, and all men want to continue it. The same idea plays through well enough for skin color, and orientation.
I know what I am, I know my thoughts, my feelings and my intentions. It starts to play with your sense of self-worth to be told that these things, things that have never caused you to do anything to harm anyone else, must be bad parts of yourself, because look at what people have done in their name.
It’s not the same scale, no. I’m not facing segregation, and don’t have to fight for my right to vote. Any of a number of other advantages you want to point out. Yeah, I benefited in some ways from the circumstances of my birth. All of this, common talking points from the sides of the aisle that I want to belong to. The side of the aisle that believes that no person should ever feel marginalized because of something that they had no control over. To hear that, and then feel like these same people are telling you you’re part of the problem because of your existence… It’s not hard to see how that can really impact one’s sense of worth to the world.
I’m sorry that you’ve had to experience this. It terrible to have sexism not only impacting one group of people, but both/all. I haven’t experienced what you have, it’s not possible for me to exactly as I’m female. Could you share one or two specific examples that made you feel that way? It would help me to understand your experience to help paint a picture. You are under no obligation to, nor does my request imply your argument is invalid.
Sometimes discrimination can be more of a gut feeling. Sometimes it is obvious but hidden, and sometimes it is direct. I’m going to list a few examples. None of which left me weeping and defeated, but all of them felt unpleasant. I want to hear your experience particularly so I can avoid doing this to others, but also because your experience is outside of my own.
Some of my examples:
- as a Flight Attendant, we have to do cabin checks every 10-15 minutes, this includes bathrooms. I’ve had two people go unconscious in the bathroom, it’s not personal when I knock and ask if you’re OK. I did so recently, the man came out shortly afterwards stood over me and shouted three inches from my face, “can’t I even take a shit?”. I responded, calmly (I’ve been at this too long), “any time someone is longer than ten minutes we have to check on them, I’m so sorry.” His response, “I wasn’t ten minutes, bitch,” and he returns to his seat.
- I was a regulatory compliance manager having a regular meeting with the director of regulatory compliance who was like a mentor to me. He lived an hours flight away with his wife on weekends and rented an apartment to stay in near the office during the week. He knew I was divorcing at that time. He suggested we had future meetings at his condo, using phrases such as “I know you must be lonely,” and “I’m away from my wife too often.” I was polite but declined and changed the subject. He canceled our future meetings on the calendar, when I asked, via email, he responded by email to say I no longer needed his mentorship.
- I was so proud to pass my private pilots final stage check with less than fifty hours, about average for our class but some took upwards of seventy. I shared my accomplishment in the class groupchat to be told, by a male student, “your examiner goes easy on women.” I didn’t press it because it was a stand alone comment amongst the congratulations, but I felt he implied that somehow my PPL was worth less than his.
It seems so silly to type out these things that hurt me. I almost feel it’s an unfair ask to commit yours to ‘paper’, I just don’t know how else to learn what your feeling, except to assume that your situation may be different but your feelings similar to mine.
telling you you’re part of the problem because of your existence… It’s not hard to see how that can really impact one’s sense of worth to the world.
I don’t mean to invalidate what you’re feeling, but that’s what it’s like to be a minority in America. I have dealt with that in some shape or form for as long as I can remember. Sorry, I don’t have any answers, but I do empathize with you.
Right. I explained in both of my previous comments that I understand that. I recognize that it’s a similar mechanism of action, and that relatively speaking, I’ve got it good. It’s really disheartening to see so many (the ‘left’ not you) getting so close to understanding that -everyone- deserves to be treated with respect by the default, and somehow turning it into a zero-sum game where, for it to get better for some, there must be a class that suffers.
It’s not that there must be a class that suffers, it’s that there is.
You’re so close. There’s just a bit further to go and you won’t be comparing losing your privilege to being discriminated against.
Can you point out which privilege he is losing (that everyone shouldn’t have)?
As a man, I don’t even like men. So I wouldn’t blame anyone for hating them. As a whole we’re right bastards.
Tbf, some feminists do hate men.
They used to just be on the Internet, but that brainrot is reaching gen z. Half of my younger female coworkers openly talk shit about men.(then pull the “oh I don’t mean you” card when I give them the side eye. Like that’s less offensive)
That’s the myth I routinely have to bust to guys I meet who hate feminists. I ask if they think women should have the right to vote. When they yes, I say that’s feminism. It’s simplistic and I usually follow up with other basic rights until I get to the contemporary issues. I say that if they want all that stuff then they are also feminists. Their reaction after this depends on how entrenched or how stupid they are.
It’s easy to fall into motte-and-bailey reasoning though. The motte is an easily defended simple thing most people agree with. The bailey is a controversial thing you want to advance. If the bailey is debated, you can retreat into the motte and make claims that it’s simple and uncontroversial. Most ideologies or systems of thought have a core that many people agree with, and then that’s taken as approval of all its extrapolations. For example, do you believe that people should be able to decide what they use their money for? Well, then you must agree with laissez-faire neo-liberalism. Do you want children to be safe online? Then you agree that the government should inspect all your communication. Do you want everyone to be equal? Then you must agree with everything the soviet union did.
With feminism, it’s easy to defend the core ideas, but it also encompasses implementations like affirmative action which not everyone agrees with, and practices that are not about dismantling hierarchies but rather just “wanting a better seat at the table of tyranny”, to quote White Lotus.
On a personal level, I work in a female dominated workplace, where women hold all the positions of power. There’s a lot of remarks and actions that would absolutely not be ok if the genders were reversed. A constant flow of explanations why men are stupid, sexualizing male workers, “playful” sexual harassment, ridiculing men etc. Many of them are self-proclaimed feminists. And it’s cheered on and praised as a form of “girl power”. If you ask me to identify as a feminist, these are the people I think of.
I have struggled a lot with setting boundaries and not letting myself be taken advantage of, so I’m very reluctant to be a part of something that requires self-flagellation over which group of people I belong to. I agree with the core of feminism, but to call myself a feminist I’d like my voice to be as welcome as a womans voice, which is rarely the case in my experience.
Except that that is the theoretical definition of feminism. Modern radical feminism (what we see around us) is hardly that
“Feminism” is just a sloppy term. It’s “egalitarianism”: people deserve rights, your demographic shouldn’t decrease your rights. Those who you’re referring to when you use the term “feminists” will insist upon this interpretation, for good reason.
“Feminism”, as a term, conjures images of the uplifting of women, which was a potent image when women weren’t allowed to vote or work most jobs. Now, with many of those low-hanging battles won, equality is largely the case, and the image of uplifting women feels a lot more like favoritism and bias than leveling the field.
Yes there are gender specific issues, but those exist in both directions much more equally than when the “feminism” label was solidified. The goal should not be to uplift women, the goal should be to trivialize the influence of gender and sex on the involuntary conditions of life. When that results in the uplifting of women, great. But men face struggles intrinsic to being men too, and naming your egalitarian movement after femininity only deepens the divide with marginalized men.
Yeah, but no. To refuse the term feminism is like to say “white lives matter too”. Of course men deserve rights, and of course white lives matter too. But white people and men don’t need to fight for themselves.
I mean don’t the majority of feminists decry the mere concept of men’s rights activists though?
That red pill movie was very eye opening to me. Not just the movie itself, but the reaction to its mere existence.
Seems to be a good litmus test though, if you don’t support the men’s rights groups as a concept then your maybe less egalitarian than you think.
